Dr. T.P. Wilkinson, philosopher-poet extraordinaire, on China Rising Radio Sinoland 190513



good afternoon buddy this is chef Jay Brown china-russia Rios I know landing shin-chan just south of the Tropic of Cancer and seven hours to the west of here in porto portugal i have online dr TP wilkinson how are you doing today dr. wilkinson i'm awake at least it's a little bit it's a little bit cloudy here and there with like light showers oh all right well listen it's an honor and a privilege to have dr. wilkinson on the show i read you his little bio and after you hear it you'll see why he is such an outstanding philosopher and poet dr. TP Wilkinson writes teaches history and English directs theater in coaches cricket between the cradles of the Hein and the Saramago he is also the author of the book church clothes land mission and the end of apartheid in South Africa many of his works since 2015 have been posted at a dissident voice where he also contributes a poem every Sunday since then prior to that pieces were posted on at global research black agenda report and at counterpunch and recently the Greenville Post has been publishing your stuff and that's how I found out about you so it's a real honor he lived in Berlin started on the weekend when the German Democratic Republic border was opened and hence spent eleven years watching the West dismantle the East that is a very apropos statement shortly thereafter he was in South Africa immediately following Mandela's release when the joint NP ANC purge of domestic anti-apartheid groups began he was studying the land issue and for that he wrote his doctoral thesis later published as the paper mentioned book church closed he undertook his MA research during the first months of Brazil's official transition to civilian rule in 1986 dr. wilkinson has impeccable timing he also spent two years as a free Lance Ryder at the United Nations headquarters in New York City 1984 to 85 and he was formally educated in New York South Carolina and Bremen Germany and he is currently semi-retired and a member of CIT CEM research institution at the University of Porto so welcome welcome on the show dr. wilkinson it's a real pleasure dr. wilkinson it's you've got quite a fabulous resume in life history and thank you for being on the show welcome thank you okay please tell us about your archive awareness about Western Empire and its racism capitalism and war was it a slow burning fuse or did you have a sudden Epiphany well I didn't have a sudden epiphany I'm a slow person I have I could never really thought too much about this in those terms it's the kind of development I think that I think it's just sort of logical and that cumulative when you take things seriously that people tell you and I always you know took tended to believe what people told me until I found out that what they said didn't coincide with what I actually saw various and and this is something that I that I constantly fight with people about is that that their writing and speech our action in themselves but there's a difference between verbal behavior and the real world and and and it's in the tie I mean I wrote some of these answers but one of the things that keeps going through my head is this for years I've been studying things related to the Roman Catholic Church or to Christianity and people will always tell you what the church stands for and I said well that's really not important what it stands for what's really important is what it does and and for over a thousand years the church has done things which are not good put it mildly so after thousand years people should notice that there's a very big difference between what it says it's doing them what it actually does and in real life like real time I think people should pay more attention to what be actually happens they're not what people say it happened and this just shows in all of the discussions and all of the sagging or whether it's journalistic historical literature or whatever how people have been thinks that they're literate because they believe what they're told and what they read but not what they see what actually happens to them and that this is a really important you notice that if somebody's beating you over there and says I love you while they're doing it something's not right unless you lie unless you like being beaten some people like that and that was all it was it was just basically saying the things that I am told to not go inside with but I see it I prefer to believe what I see and make my own opinion or shape my own explanation for what actually is going on yeah you know cognitive dissonance and you know what you know and I think also we have an amazing capacity to compartmentalize unpleasant things in order to survive and keep jobs and and we have to do that I mean animals do things like you know we are basically a kind of animal not a very useful one but we're we're kind of animal we tend to forget that we are biological entities and we have all of those restrictions and this these institutions that we create distract us often from from actual physical and physiological necessities yeah and and people start you know a really crazy idea but one of the most anybody who can the sixties I can remember the first discussions about airbags and cars right yeah and airbags are not a new device the 60s they were invented and it's that only the 90s other of the last century that people have even thought about the surface normal yeah as they say but normals if they were new because people don't don't follow very long what's going on in their own lives the other thing is that I remember when I was a child being told that is the Sun or to go out right now in eight minutes we'd all be icicles well actually if the Sun went out we probably wouldn't exist at all because the flame weather or the same out will probably wipe out the planet immediately but let's keep it simple so the Sun goes out in eight minutes we're all frozen so weird worried about carbon dioxide from cars global warming is not a phenomenon of human being it's a phenomenon of the Sun then the earth position the Sun what is a phenomenon of human beings is polluted air polluted water and polluted soil and nobody's talking about that anymore not since the sixties birthday running around getting lots of money to tell us not to have a carbon footprint and nobody's talking about disarmament but just the biggest carbon footprint in the world so so that's studying about thinking about things in a perspective of what really it means to be human being you don't have to be have a sophisticated interior viewpoint you only have to look and say what's going on outside and what are people telling me yeah is this an only watch to watch the weather report and you don't go outside you don't know if it's raining or not well they get it wrong about half the time recently you wrote an article in the Greenville Post talking about the quote snatching I love that word the quote snatching of Julian Assange from the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and I was thinking that you know and you were saying that we mere mortals plan ahead a week a month a year in advance but our elite owners have the luxury of doing so years ahead and it is easy to forget that as songs you know he's been an imperial prisoner since 2012 while is that an outrage about his quote arrest when he's been locked up for seven years and and still is and and and when we see what is happening in France with Emperor McColl and the yellow vests and burning Ecuador Brazil and Argentina from socialist various stripes back to neoliberal whores it really does seem like our owners are expert at just weariness down and out and kicking the proverbial Imperial can down the road to hell any any comments on that well you know we all are mortal right and and and Simone de Beauvoir wrote a really nice novel about this called an English all men are mortal and I tell people who asked questions like this they should read this book because one it's a really simple story it's a there's a guy in about the end of the Middle Ages of the early Renaissance in an Italian city-state who is let's say on a minor nobleman and he his city is under siege and he wants to save it so but he doesn't know how and a guy comes to him and says I got this potion here and it will make you immortal and I says yeah how do I know it's not poison said well I'll offer you and he gives it to a mouse it happens to be letting the crawl of a rats on that and he kills the mouse the mouse lies there in inanimate or up and then throw leader after get something from the way so the guy says no but if this works why don't you take it well no I read before the mortality is something I know on a minute so the guys really ambitious he wants to say this disease or matriod so he takes his stuff well the story doesn't start with that it starts with him oh my gosh Islam in southern France and some really crazy woolen actress asking him why he lies there every single day and doesn't sing and she and then he proceeded to tell her the story of five hundred years of his life all all of his wives died all of his girlfriends had died everything he made has fallen apart nothing has outlived him interesting there are some different ways to to look at that but my way of looking that is that we're driven by people who are a course whose main concern is that they want to be immortal and they tend to do that they have to kill everybody else and this is this is the only way to live longer then because there is no immortality for individual human beings even David Rockefeller you know I was so glad my great aunt of limited by a year or so you know but these people want to live well concurrently want to have more and this is this pathological and and that's what eyes are suspecting I think it drives our society in the best much more than it does in the East because our religion is based on this idea that immortality and salvation are important instead of looting by abnormal human beings and and this is the reason why never with all of these political movements at very far because in the end where we have who still want to be immortal and they don't want to let people simply live their normal lives and it doesn't matter what political configuration they belong there they business to one form of immortality with the other and I think this is really the me the the the common denominator in the West that would it's a religion of death you know you kill everybody in order to be immortal and that's the way these many were and that's the way everything because nobody talks about the religious basis of our society in a serious analytical way I can get very far and in terms of political stuff and then that's the sort of summary of how I see that's that's that's the connect that's a connection that I have not made and I'll give it some more thought you just mentioned pathology and and in West you know Western pathology you wrote an article on global research about Psychopaths the among American presidents and you were satirically comparing several of them to elements of the periodic table of elements and and I was thinking about when you were doing that and and Jared Diamond wrote about nomadic tribes in Papua New Guinea and like everywhere they have to deal with psychopathic members who try to take over the tribe with intimidation violence and terror in short the making of a king and if a community and and dr. diamond noticed that if a community kept its numbers below about 200 persons they could control this quote big man and to quote this big man problem with discipline shame banished men and if necessary they would they would kill the guy but once tribes got too big became sedentary developed a specialized labor test and or produced surpluses these type 1 you know type a personality types would eventually inevitably take over and and I remember reading a book of and how psychiatrists were interviewing veterans talk about how you know 2% of the soldiers come back from battle with no regrets and loved all the blood and the slaughter you know while 98 percent returned with psychological scars and an inner torment and the these the psychologist you know presume that they think that the first group the two percent are the psychopaths you feel no remorse or for guilt for their crimes and so what I wanted to ask you to those 2% psychopaths are there they always seem to get into powerful decision-making positions whether they're CEOs or presidents or priests as you just mentioned or police officers and complex societies like our own how do we deal with all these big men as dr. diamond called them who end up terrorizing is what do we do well I mean also wrote even somewhat earlier about the problem starting with the news and the division of labor every division of labor in Western society has involved creating hierarchies which subordinates people who have do physical work people who do what what we call for lack of another from mental or intellectual work which i think is better described as manipulating or organizations in organizations are saying that are essentially verbal constructs and what we have for people who can were specialized at manipulating language and people who are specialized at manipulating clubs or or guns and other things so you have these two groups get together and that's what is the main division of labor in so-called modern society but I think that the problem is always going to be there of how to deal with power and what limits power has to be said in what context hours exercise I don't think that's a problem that can be can be solved in any kind of salvific or final way what I do think and this is whether my experience in school and temples as a pupil and as a student and as a teacher has taught me is that what we have is in least in the West and and in places where institutionalized schooling that plays an important role and a machine for constructing and maintaining this kind of subordination and it works in a very very simple way that you if you take a standard class would say 30 children and you start from the premise there's a sort of a foreman in the form of the teacher who is like a prison warden because these are this is a course of institution children don't get to choose to go to school they're sent to school and they have to do things there which they're told and they don't have any way of settling disputes that arise by themselves partly because they don't know how and partly because the order around them determines it so you have in maybe maybe kind of bell curve of people who are basically not really as are young people who are basically don't have any experience they don't really know what's going on they're in this strange space there's somebody who's sort of absolute dictatorial Authority and there are other children who are in this space and they've already got a feeling for how to advance their own interest and I call it for lack another term and also because it's very school scholastic I call it a bully principal and if you understand how it works in school you can see how it works in every other institution because this is where children learn it the bulk of children are just sort of past passive active they're there they're there and they're watching what's going on and they're not doing anything particular then there are people who are one end of the spectrum are there for whatever reason and only concerned with themselves and they could be concerned with themselves and they want to be alone or their concern with themselves that they want to aggrandize and it starts already with the teachers collaboration in the problem of how do I deal with 30 people 30 people who are not my children 30 people who all have their own development or whatever and I want to do my job and go home so I want to be efficient in controlling these 30 people so I look for children who help me do it and then one of the classic persons to do this is the bully the bully actually works for the system the bully K is some on the teacher knows is there and uses consciously or unconsciously to control the class now one of the biggest problems that people don't really seem to understand and because they're not looking at the right things I think is how does a bully maintain his power oh this is the same way that supposed to democracy maintains its power namely since most people don't really have a viewpoint yet and in our society no one was the ultimate rules no one wants to be the loser people who have no opinion are waiting to see who the winner is and the boy the boy is all his his strategy or her strategy is to create the circumcision in which the side he's on looks like it's going to win and so all of the people were afraid of losing will shift to the bully just not to be the losers because they agree or anything but because the last thing anybody wants to be in the group is the loser and so you will have a typical situation and let's move up to say let's say a town council or or a local election a lot of people will have no real opinion or knowledge about a particular issue but they don't want to be telling their friends they voted for the person or the decision that was defeated so they wait until they're seeing what they think is going to be the majority and that they vote in that direction now the boys main job is to create for his own advantage the impression of where the majority is going to be by selectively terrorizing people in the space in which this group is to be on his side he doesn't need to even intimidate everybody just needs to selectively and it's usually spatial in the classroom a bully will pick people who are different places in the class so that everyone else looking will say well there and there I'm surrounded by people who agree with him and no one wants to be the one who doesn't agree with abundant everybody else seems to agree with so there's a spatial illusion already in classroom where the teachers and can get a majority for something by picking somebody and everyone will say I don't want to be wrong so I don't have an opinion but I don't want to have the wrong opinion yeah so and and this is this starts very early so the thing is there's lack of transparency in the social configuration of a 30-30 pupil classroom and that goes on for 12 years in most European and North American school systems by the time they come out they've learned how to obey and now to be terrorized successfully now it doesn't change like trying to enter you change those kinds of structures you will never get the dalts who can think on their own these are my accidents and the bullet and natality and the bullies are going to control the situation well the thing is you don't think you can't control it if you can't break it up in the classroom which is one reason why people love public schools or state schools and in fact the British understood this very well that's why the public schools in Britain not the state schools we're not about academics activity but about sports and zagging about learning how to the deferens about learning who's boss you couldn't you can read the descriptions of Harrow and each another academics never played an important role in those schools except to tell people outside that the graduates of these schools were somehow intellectually also better them had never had any role for these schools Harvard was never there for intellectual expertise it was to reproduce bullies and that's what this bill does the main people who come from the Ivy League who go anywhere have just been part of the bully system of the United States for decades or centuries now and but they they know that they have to prep they can't promote and say we are like the British we rebel beliefs war so they buy talent they buy they buy talent with scholarships to give these universities these elite schools the image of having intellectual superiority whereas the the norm is someone like a bush who would have failed without people writing his exams for him yeah hmm you know but this is a tradition that goes back to Great Britain which is the great model of Western capitalism and social structure americans love monarchy they don't pretend they pretend to be the Republicans but they really love monarchy and our aristocrat aristocracy and this kind of culture is nothing other than enhanced belief culture you know bowing down to people who have may connect managed to produce a better song and dancer and kill people who don't like it let me ask you this dr. wilkinson you know you just mentioned you know Western capitalism and do you think for your for your readers or listeners I think really that one book that the people should read with dylon life a villain like is really important in what he says about how fascism doesn't begin in the Nazi Party it begins in the family who's in 1 billion over the hell are ya you mentioned him I remember talking with ya yeah the mass psychology of fascism very important book on the other the other thing people should really read if they want to understand some of what I'm saying is a book by Francoise man called behemoth and it's it was originally written for the OSS as a part of a study of the German and Nazi hierarchy the first part is mainly about the the political party structure that's interesting from historical standpoint but the really really important part is the second part that people don't pay too much attention to it's about economic bureaucracy how the state and the and and the trust structures are integrated to use the state to administer the economy for the benefit of cartels and this is very highly developed in Germany and it's highly developed in the United States as well but very few people talk about that when they try to explain how the authority of the system works because most people are not controlled by politics are controlled at their workplace but the lack of one and if you don't understand the authority system for the business organization endless family organization you cannot understand why we live in a sick society I'll ask you to email me the names I mentioned that I mentioned the titles in my written answers and I'll add those to the to the article well if at the opposite end of fascism for this big man bully problem that you were talking about do you think an overriding ideology like you know communism or socialism helps like in China Cuba Iran etc you know China has a ruling I mean grueling decades-long winnowing process of meritocracy that that seems to do I think a great job of eliminating the worst of the psychopaths and bullies their leaders are very citizen oriented and heads of heads and shoulders above the Westie you think an ideology you know an over overriding ideology like that can help overcome some of this a bully bully problem well I think in a way this is my very superficial understanding of China historically I think actually it's the absence of this overriding ideology that has been a major contribution one of the things I recall reading and trying to deal with the distinction between Western religion and and Asian religions was a comment and I don't remember who wrote it but it was around the beginning of the colonization of China or the the the attempt to make China into a largely a Western Protectorate where people who were primarily Confucian in their training and organization said you know we just don't have something like the Jesuits you know because it was very clear to them that the Catholic Church was a a far more powerful organization than anything they had to counter it and and and that you'd be able to Jesuit Pope now I mean this is only sort of proves the point the Roman Catholic Church is one of the most powerful organizations in the world today known is so powerful that people imitate it but it's not an ethical organization and so all of its calling all of its pretenses through the contrary it's a really a vicious power and wealth structure and it has been since its creation now I would argue then this is a really only tentative but my my general inclination is to say that what is probably successful in China is precisely this communism or its in its application in China is not a Roman Catholic model but a Confucians model the Confucianism and the computer this model which also prevails in in Korea is a meritocratic principled structure which is based on actually doing things solving problems and not based on a strict hierarchical organization in which the very top has the answers to everything and and that may be it and and and my history teacher once told me years ago is that the reason for the little red book that Mao produced was because he realized he realized that he could not if he wanted to transmit the values of communism he had to use the structures of Confucianism and Confucianism is is transmitted in aphorisms and in principles and not in great our ideological Supersuckers so he produced the ultimate book as a Confucianist work and that may be the reason why this this other way of interpreting Marxism has been successful there's another aspect which i think is really important worth mentioning and that and that is it if you look about it from a religious history point of view the rest is the only part of the world rent meaning Western Europe and those places that are populated by so-called white people it's the only part of the world that has no ancestor worship now I hadn't thought about all all of these got Africa and South Indian Indigenous of North and South America and all of Asia have very strong even contemporary traditions of ancestor worship or at least a kind of a strong deeply rooted respect for it for ancestors and only in the West do we not have that and I think that there's a reason why that there are various reasons why that's the case but one of the things that uh one of the results of this difference is that the respect for ancestors is not only respect for people of the past but also respect for the the nature in the past and for certain continuity certain things that you'd simply respect because they were there before you came and we don't have that in Western culture we have no respect for anything of the past because we're gonna have a past we're always making it up and we don't we hate our old people we hate anything that still works that's not new we haven't a deeply rooted antagonism toward anything which is genuinely from the past and because of that they're always destroying things because destroying things is the only way to eliminate the history we historicized in the 19th century we learned how to talk about European culture as a historical process in the nineteenth century but we never grasped it as a as a sense at least the bulk of society never grasses it as a real past they only grasped it as a way of telling the story and that's different from Asia and the rest of the world which has a past and recognizes that past as part of the present and didn't have to be told that they had a past yeah we can't even remember what happened last week so so when you if you take it this is a very significant difference then one can see that in a lot of places in the world the kind of environmental destruction the kind of elimination of whole cultures and the implementation of whole ways of life simply didn't happen until white people came and and so when we have these videos from UN or from whatever kind of NGOs from Europe and North America going around lecturing other people on environmental questions I just sort of want to vomit because it's the five hundred years of Western contamination that has done almost all the damage usually we're going to tell the rest of the world which never managed to destroy as much in thousands of years as the Americans from here and the Europeans have done in only 500 that they know how to save the planet this is absurd yeah and and and in the capitalist system which is which it'll never happen well the capitalist system is nothing more than the extension of the Roman Catholic Church it's really nothing more than capitalism and Christendom are the same thing they just have different emphases but it's basically the same ideology it's the same corporate structure it's the same focus on salvation profit is just another word for salvation and and their basic hatred of everyday life the people run the economy in in in Europe and North America and South America they're all basically the same these people have absolutely no respect for life whatsoever because they all seek profit really as immortality and that's the only thing they're carrying around that's what the Middle East medieval Catholic Church taught these people that life on earth is hell and salvation is the only purpose to live and the only way to get to salvation s of the church and in the end the modern world means the corporation you know IBM and General Motors and and Goldman Sachs and all of these institutions are the only way to get to profit and therefore the only way to get to salvation and nothing else counts and if you if you understand that then it's very clear why nothing can change in the West the only thing that can change is in the rest of the world and when maybe in Western Europe returns to the backwater it was 500 years ago of primitive grain a nose of nothing very eaters well listen now you you you commented on China and you wrote a poem which I read about China in your weekly poetry column on dissident voice and please share with us you know just you talked about it just a little bit but your current thoughts about this amazing country and and especially looking back at the West's horrific genocide perpetrated here you know starting with in 1839 with the opium wars and I loved in my interview with James Bradley he called Queen Elizabeth in the United Kingdom along with the United States the biggest drug dealer and narcos States respectively in human history and any any comments about that well well I think this is this is accurate but it goes back before the opium wars I mean actually the beginning of the drug trade was I want coincided with the European creation of the the sugar industry any sugar is the drug number one in society consumed for sugar then heroin and and and and I guess if you count all the people who've got so sugar related diseases they certainly exceed well for the number of people who are suffering from addiction to opiates and similar drugs and this is really the the original drug business and if you look at the the the most notorious aspect of the sugar industry in the West is that it was entirely possible because of slave labor you know and and and these and these two things are together with us today drugs and and slave labor our economic foundation of capitalism this is what Eric Williams wrote in in the 40s it's because even further than than what Marx talks about although Marx has had the right systemic analysis he didn't address really the problem of Western economic development in its in its foundation you know he talked about being closers and and what happened when when with the secularization of church property but he didn't talk about the role of the of the drug industry basically and in in in the sugar colonies and and slavery as the free the free wealth after all the gold had been taken out of Latin America the free well this allowed Europe to become super rich compared to the rest of the world you know and this is this this excess wealth from from free labor and from drug dealing is what is driving the economy today the United States does not fight wars for anything except protect the drug business the weapons business in the oil business and these are all dollar businesses and without these businesses there's no need for US dollar anywhere that's for sure and so you know the tortoise goes back to two after they exhausted the gold and silver in Peru and Mexico and South America they went to basically to sugar and tobacco to a lesser extent but sugar ways it's here well because we even if it doesn't come from some slave labor anymore but it just means that the culture the culture of getting wealthy is selling people things they don't need with labor it's not paid for and then there's also you know some other minerals or stuff like that but the main thing is to get things for free not to get things for a low price but you get them for free and if you if you know we always have to say we always have to listen to people who tell us in that high authority that we have to work for our money but in reality the people are rich don't work so where's the reality they're getting rich has nothing to do with work and that's something nobody we don't like to talk about but it's true you don't get rich from working and my grandfather told me that and I didn't understand what he meant but he said that one other thing which I think is really money is really easy to make if that's the only thing you want to do and if you turn that around it's like an equation in algebra you turn that around it means the people who have the most money do absolutely nothing else but think about how to make more and whether they have a foundation that donates money here and whether they go to the Opera and whether they appear on this show or whatever they're only they never do anything in their lives if there isn't some money to be made and frankly most of us I think we can say this is where the the virtuous person comes from the virtuous person is the most people aren't really that interested in money or don't have the capacity to think about money all the time because we cut off children they want to have sex they wanted to other things and money sort of gets in the way but really rich people have someone to do all those things for them so you want to get to another thing we go back to Rousseau is it the minute you agree that there's a class of people that don't have to wash their own clothes you've got the problem in your society not to mention you mentioned you know sugar tobacco and slavery we also can't forget the the wholesale theft of entire continents like North America and all the resources from South America and Africa yeah in the colonies and stealing it for free like you said that's that's the way capitalism works it's just smash and grab and and rape and plunder he wrote a really good article in global research and I had never seen this acronym before a a ie the anglo-american Israeli Empire which I really really like that and you compared the Zionist state to the special treatment the Catholic Church accorded the the Knights of Templar during the Middle Ages and the Knights got too arrogant and and complacent for their own good and the church wiped him out and and I wrote in the China trilogy that the gates of Jerusalem had changed hands 44 times in the last 5,000 years and will surely do so again in other words meaning that Israel's gonna eventually lose control or the scientists will lose control of Jerusalem please share with us your Templar analogy and and when you think genocide will Israel look at its just deserts well I I don't make any business by predicting what will happen in history so I'm neither soothsayer my comparison was simply that one has to were not have to look very far back in history to see that the official explanation for the existence of this evil has nothing through the actual reason why the state was created and I originated this argument but our action back in summarize nobody has it as far as we know any plans for the National Socialists to take power in 1916 or 1917 I haven't got it exact date in life it well bar for roses famous letter to Lord Rothschild in this particular case but every how should the decoration understood now a declaration has to be understood do over the fact that it was already clear the British Empire that they were going to have problems in following territories in which all of that oil was and world war one was exhausting the capacity of Britain's Danish Empire in February and by the end of World War one you has a provisional problem the event dates for sins of his own or religious beliefs was promoting the idea which countries the people should have something called national self-determination I don't want to make it more idealistic than it was but we have this at the end of world one or one in the end of World War two and to a certain extent by pronouncing these kinds of doctrines as infamous as they it may be expectations were awoken that people would actually be freed of colonialism that this was not going to happen the least not in the way that those colonial peoples expected was something probably couldn't happen anticipated or at least they couldn't anticipate because they took thing seriously more or less that we're told to them yes there's going to be an end with the League of Nations is going to be an end to colonialism there's going to be an end with the UN to colonialism okay so already before there was never any idea of what was going to happen to many millions of people in during the Second World War Britain was trying to discuss our resolve it's coming problem with how to divide up the former Ottoman Empire and the practical solution I think was these people who in Britain were all schooled in sort of ancient history but not very much in modern history unless they went to a few of the professional schools at that time thought in in classical terms of where do they have to be to have control over that region and the control of that region is basically Cyprus and Malta and Palestine these are the historical places for controlling that region and the Templars controlled that region under the premise that they and that was also the hub of the Asian trade route to Europe so it was not just a religious reason for just something like today there there there nice decoration but the real fact was that Overland trade efficiently came through the Levant and then was taken from there by ships to Venice and to other places in in Europe and control of that was an important economic decision to put to keep military control of that military control also because the Roman Catholic Church has always militarily in competition with orthodoxy meaning the West the Easterners Rana bleaches longer Russian and well until the establishment of the Islamic control of Constantinople basically Byzantium's was the Eastern Church and if you don't know the history of the division between Rome and and Byzantium you can't place the the historical military struggle between Rome and and and and Eastern Europe meaning also that the whole area the buzzy the Ottoman right our Empire so you have this that's the classical role of the Templars fulfilled they enrich themselves land and they were and the Pope order the Catholic Church didn't have its own resources they used mercenaries like everybody else did at the time the Templars were established as a corporation they controlled and delivered tribute to the various potentates in the church and and and therefore they had a license to sort of run that area and that's basically what Rothschild was negotiating with the British government is we want to have a colonial influence in this area although you're not going to going to tell everybody there won't be any colonies when you have to remember the decisive picot agreement that was concluded before the end of World War one divided the Levantine and Syria and Iraq between France and Britain secretly mm-hmm unknown to all of the people who the British have been saying after the war you're going to be independent if you support us against the people in Istanbul in concert in the war against the Ottoman Empire so these people were cheated out of their independence and they knew the British knew that they couldn't fight them all so they needed they needed a base and we can't forget the glod roster Oliver is as a representative of the leading European banking institution is also connected with the oil companies and Brits had in World War 1 already changed from coal to oil and drip and was driving his whole fleets what's going to be Dragon is hopefully even oil and there was no question of leaving the oil in the control of the people who lived there but you have to do it's been directly after World War one and so so we have the establishment the plans for establishing Palestine as a white European colony it's the dental yeah but it's incidental that it became a bit it was Jewish and the the Jewish process of or the the the process of it became and becoming it was was was a convenience it was a it was an economic convenience because you had essentially just another European colony David ben-gurion the first president visco wasn't even connected to Europe he was a civil servant enough in Turkey you know we had we had these were colonial officials who came and took over the government of a colony now it became an independent colony of an independent country the same way South Africa did and that's why these countries these two countries are so ideologically connected South Africa and Israel established their national independence from Britain basically in the same way were the same ideology but the principle is this is white supremacy in regions that had to Accord officially become decolonized but killed under the problem but needed to be kept under control by my mother you couldn't advocate colonization by white people anymore after 1914 and after 1945 absolutely not so you had to have another reason for doing this but the reason is that you you know Israel was not settled by Jews living in Palestine ever was created by Europeans who moved there and it was created like as a as a colony at a point when colonies officially were not supposed to be created because the UN said the UN Charter said we're not going to have any more colonies we created that they created the trusteeship council which was going to there was going to be an end to all self-governing territories everybody was gonna have a right to be independent but not Palestine because it was already independent enhance white people so this this this was already a problem and recognized as a problem up and Joe about the Six Day War and NASA actually put this you know this this this problem in a diplomatic way but he said you know exactly exactly what the point is that everybody saw this as European colonialism not as not as a question of protecting Jews now that's why we have the plot the ideological problem that they then and Norman Finkelstein goes into great detail about this manufacturers a history of the Second World War to justify the colonization of Palestine and this is still very popular propaganda gets shown in Germany every time anybody says anything against Israel there's a there's uh the television is done always or is with with Holocaust films from mainly from from the United States so you know it's a very effective machine and Finkelstein describes how this machine deliberately was put in place to cover the the obvious colonization on colonial policies of the Europeans in Palestine and the successor state which is in the sense nothing more than a very compact form of the National States that the white South Africans tried to maintain and that so we come to your question if you if you if you take that is sort of the historical background the problem is not Israel for say the problem is when are we going to resolve the problem of Europeans dominating other let's say non-white no that's not scaling the issue because if you are if you look at the actual conflict maybe you can remember some decades ago there was a plane load or a boatload of Ethiopian Jews and they were all black and Israel didn't want to admit them and as citizens of Israel although the constitution of Israel says it's all Jews have a residual right to citizenship in Israel they they refused to admit these people though they were all Jewish and it was very clear why anybody wanted to look at it was career wise because the Jews account and I got a good friend Alyssa went through this whole process the Jews account in Israel are only righteous European descent and that's the problem that nobody looked back because to say that it's really about white folks means that it's was about white folks everywhere and we are and and and and under that's why it's one can get fire or even the most that's why there's such a thing called Christian Zionism because it's really about white supremacy well that is thoughtful looking I really I really appreciate that because I hadn't really thought of it that way but I understand what you're saying now well this goes back to the first question Roz I didn't have any epiphanies I just tried to keep things simple and I try to succeed mother try to describe what I see rather than just reading the manual and finding that the manual doesn't well I mean you live in a country which has a completely different language than anything right and if that's so you probably are aware of the fact that there are some things that people will translate that simply can't be translated you can only look and see what it is and handle it yourself if you don't know the language well what we have is basically in the West a massive language that is so thick that people have enormous difficulty seeing real things tasting real food seeing what's really happening in front of them because they only believe what they're told I have a take one last anecdote on this point I had a discussion with a political science friend of mine who is works in the Green Party in Germany and his reasonably educated but at least I think by normal standards and we were talking about Russia and the United States and I and and there was a discussion about well Russia does this and Russia does that and who does this and does that and and I said something like what are you talking about and she said to me you know and her office wanted to fall apart I didn't know really to break out laughing or cry she said well it's true that the United States actually creates and commits the most human rights abuses but that's not the point we're talking about Russia and their Slav and Orthodox so they're not really white well I mean you know they're you can explain it a lot of different ways but this is a person who actually says I mean she comes from the political class so what we're a level functionary but she says I know essentially that the United States is a criminal organization but that's not our problem our problem is that we have a policy to deal with Russia and you know and this is not an uncommon way in which you will find people who would claim to be on the Left claimed to be all sort it will actually still argue this they will get all lathered about something they've heard about Putin but they won't ask anything about what's really going on there first of all and second of all they will never get anywhere near as lathered at the factor let's say they're the United States of the farm bigger prison population the 80% of the population is black that's not a problem for these people all right it's not a problem it's a problem whether or not somebody who's you know 20-something candace face the altar of an orthodox church without being punished that's that's a problem for them that that that you'd get hung if you did that in the Baptist Church in Georgia nobody needs to discuss that's not our issue and that's just you know this is because they're not really in the world they're in this farce or this this part of the cesspool of language which has no relationship to where 90% of the population lives memories and it's mainly a write problem or what people the people who call themselves like or the we are assuming you know what the Chinese I think all long noses these are the people have the problem and they're not really that many of them but they're everywhere it's sort of like cockroaches you know when people people like to refer to Kafka you know for a lot of things they refer to the the the his his book about someone's got no name but they don't think they don't talk too much Franz Kafka yeah oh yeah the process yeah talk about the process but they don't talk about the metamorphosis oh yeah they met when they you know that's where they got the famous for the the the the the fly yeah yeah but the thing is they don't really understand what this is this is white people this is what European culture does to humanity it turns people into monsters this is the message people don't want to understand that people like Kafka we're not writing fantasy stories that we're talking about how people get turned into monsters by Western culture let's know they did it very graphically and and they are everybody talks about this legal problem and this this Kafka s thing but the real Casca is talking about the monsters created everyday by the Roman Catholic Jewish Protestant whatever western white civilization it creates monsters and you have to do a lot to avoid getting turned into a monster like this so and that that message doesn't get across Freud for instance the last common trend and musters freud was writing about this mikan-san was writing about what's the austro-hungarian Empire made out of people you know the whole problem of psychoanalysis and the whole problem of his his last two essays Llosa's and monotheism and and civilization and its discontents is that the Empire of austria-hungary that Catholic empire of the of Central Europe created Psychopaths institutionally and this was going to lead to what it did mass murder on the fields of France and Germany and Italy and Turkey not to mention other places but really you know a nun previously unknown massive destruction it was the logical conclusion of the monstrosity produced by this kind of society and we don't talk about that because we always want to look at the individual we never put things in context and the context is the social structures that we have created and in which we live which are designed to make monsters and they do very successfully they go around and kill the rest of the world it's it's funny you mentioned that because I know that after World War Two another psychiatrist Carl Jung Ju NJ made the comment that that Western Western society was pathological and I guess that goes in fits in with what you just said Freud wrote of whether Chinese the Chinese didn't invent the atomic bomb the Africans didn't the Indians didn't who invented it white people you look at anyway they invented the machine gun all the weapons for mass destruction were invented by a minority of the human population to control the majority I suspect the West also invented chemical chemical weapons and well the thing is a chemistry chemistry if you look at a very intimate the real big chemical industry started in southern Germany and it started to produce fertilizers and things which were to be substitutes for things they couldn't steal anymore you know every every major chemical development has been at the cost of agriculture of real farming or of natural products now Germany had an incentive to do that to some extent because it wanted to industrialize and compete with Britain Britain could steal still because it's at all these colonies in Germany didn't have any so Germany had developed the chemical industry to produce oil everything domestically out of whatever they had there and but the the basic principle is that you have produced things in mass quantities first of all to to be able to survive in the market all right what happened when the sugar industry became a burden a liability in the Caribbean and whatever one of the things that happened was they to get away from that structure prostate is I love to meet sugar you know so so suddenly all the tea sugar became surplus Oh sugar became an industrial product yeah and and you have the and so all of these people were previously working and you can you can be cynical about it and say well once the Caribbean islands became independent and all I had was change sugar well now we've got beet sugar and beet sugar we can produce here we don't need the Caribbean sugar so we can leave these guys to rot on the vine and that was sort of if you looked at the bottom of the article that the review of Gerald horns book and and you watch the film burn or if you vote my silver no yeah it was a yeah there's a there's a there's a point of which Marlon Brando actually says this he says to his companion that's dope Dolores Del Oro that there's beet sugar already that the cost of sugar is going to be control in Europe and not by the and this is something we've completely forgotten about the economic development of the last 40 years is that after the decolonization the control of oil and that meant that all of these non-oil producing colonies had to buy oil in dollars putting pushing them into a enormous debt so the other thing that happened was that there was an attempt among other things through with things like the Loom a convention to to introduce producer cartels producer cartels and I think also Goods mainly because of all these countries yeah so and to the idea for the left was that this was to be balanced the industrial cartels of course it didn't work quite that way but the idea was at least logical all of these cartels were crushed if they had anything to do with delivering money back to those countries that had been robbed so the only ones that survived the only cartel system that survived was OPEC and OPEC survived because it was run by mainly by criminally beats who are working with the oil companies and so it if you look at John Blair's control of oil which is back in this 70 60 or 70 s he explains there's never been a shortage of crude oil there's only been a shortage of there's always been a danger that there would be too much and that the price would go down the people don't talk about the oil industry in anything resembling historical accuracy so that you you know this idea of oil prices and stuff like that because it is mostly nonsense what you read in it because it doesn't even it's it's nowhere near the factual basis or the historical basis of how the industry is structured works or ownership is even organized and this was something but and then so people were always talking about well OPEX a cartel from by the Arabs is on repetition which is utter nonsense but you have this period right where people trying to take what was left of their economies after the colonial masters left and turned it into self-sustaining economies and it was not possible because Europe had an industry capable of replacing almost everything that could be naturally produced in its colonies by the time the war had ended mm-hmm all paid for by taxpayer as well well noted because the war industry basically forced the production of substitutes to agricultural or natural products in order to make high profits but also to be sure that you had things if you didn't have the right colonies to supply you so you have this this process of chemical industry basically built up on the oil industry and on the capacity of Europe to dominate all of these other countries by threatening them with replacements which are always more expensive but they're not more expensive you got people to pay and we do we have people paper we send like the British the British crushed the textile industry in India so the sacred imports more expensive textiles and we do this still today with every other even in Portugal we import things in Portugal that we could make ourselves even in the EU it's like that in the small places divided the northern countries get things cheap and sell them back to us expensively nobody seems to notice nobody seems to care because there's always enough there are always enough people who are making a little bit of business on the side and say okay I can I don't want to upset things I don't want to accept things because I was my income or something worse so we live from day to day that's my lesser that there's vampire is something for the eternity leave it for the people who live forever I'm only interested in getting through my life well that's left large enough Upton Sinclair said that the it's hard to get a man to understand the truth when understanding the true when hit when when his job when his job depends on him not understanding the truth so a little bit different I distinguish on that point is that I think that there were that throughout his brief most slaves knew they were slaves sometimes they could do something about this most of the time they couldn't but they didn't pretend that they were free people yeah and that's and at home everybody knew and the problem we have at least in white folks at this problem is it they pretend all the time that they're free and the only way they can do that is by making sure other people really aren't yeah because they can always say I'm free because he's not and I he has to work I don't that to simplify but the thing is that I don't believe in there I don't believe that I'm particularly free I have a privileged position for my for Mike for my circumstances I'm happy you know I don't have to work very hard I have a nice place to live I don't have any money to speak of but I know people have much less but I don't pretend honestly I don't pretend that I live in this best society in the world I don't pretend it's a democracy I just accept that those are things that I'm not asked to decide and that I don't have any authority over and all right and I talked to my friends I say that I think look you know I don't live in the best place in the world it's okay for me I don't live in a democracy but I can survive and I don't tell other people's in my life or my society is better than theirs does it just ain't true yeah last resistance for sure and I think that even a person whose job depends on and I've worked in companies where you have your job depends on a lot of official self-perception that's one thing you know you have your job you have to be polite if you're a waiter even if you're a person you're serving your job is to be a servant but when you go home hopefully you have the integrity you say well I did my job I got my money but I don't have to tell my family that I'm a superior person I went and did my job and I'm done with it now I'm home and everybody else and this is what the you know the labor movement is lost there was a time when new web workers knew that has to work they knew they were the boss was and they didn't pretend that they were the boss so they're you know I'm still very I'm listening yeah you know and what we have now is that people are all pretending there's a boss so they don't see the real boss because that's embarrassing they work for the man yeah I don't I know who I work for and I don't pretend not to work for this person but there Spencer do this I know Anna and I know this tomorrow or somebody God thought I was in the way I would not wake up in the morning just like four or five hundred years ago I would hope that they wouldn't torture me you know I don't know much you know I would hope that if they're gonna you know if I'm becoming unpleasant but they just kill me and get it over quickly you know but I don't imagine that me somehow live in a civilization you know like like like bellows there are other sizes that white civilization how long as I could if it ever existed yeah burns a great movie there a lot of people have never seen it a lot well I'll put a link to that I think it's available in low low low quality but I think it's available on YouTube it's really an outstanding outstanding movie so well lovely the the other filming he made a battle for Battle of Algiers really also very interesting interesting as well as that's that's that's a nice nice little movie it's not nice to watch but it impression about what it's basically what's going on in today in all of these places that are occupied by NATO you know this kind of as though this is this in fact the people who develop the strategy are became the the experts and insurgency against poor people well why they were French and they went to the United States analyzed the Americans are to fight in Vietnam and the their generation fast all that information on now we have like third generation but but Algiers is basically uh the people who who were relevant was that Algerian war had a footprint that covered forty to fifty years and we still have the influence of this doctrine of dealing with especially urban populations and that's it's it's interesting if people were to even look in that particular vein to see the continuity between what French and British colonialism developed on population control strategies and how they are or still with new and improved versions and new technology still the guiding form for or rising power in places be exploited well man I tell you what dr. wilkinson this has been an amazing conversation and I really gonna have to get you back on we could talk for for for another hour but unfortunately if we if we keep if we go too long then people won't people see how long how long the podcast is and they don't want to click on it so I'm gonna keep things in a digestible form let's get you back on and I'll be in France this summer and we'll be almost in the same time zone and maybe we can have it we can pick up I actually have had three or four more other questions for you but let's let's just listen let's say this is part one how about that and then we'll continue again in June when I next month when I get to France how does that sound yeah okay actually the question how do you manage to have French and US nationality is your you were you born in France or what happened was I got married to my wife who is from France in 1988 and I didn't even think about it and I didn't even occur to me and we were at a function at the u.s. impressa from at the French Embassy and in Beijing and of course I spoke fluent French and and the lady the the diplomat said oh man you should you know you should apply for French citizenship you know etc and so I did and I applied in 19 I think was 1988 II I don't know 1990 and I applied and you know withdrawals just I'm naturalized I'm naturalized and based on your Paris your bids on your bridge both you do they do what they do like people who can actually speak to speak the language and although I'm sure people have gotten foreign citizenship too don't speak as well as as I did but I'm sorry I'm naturalized and of course our daughter our two daughters have both American and French nationality they were born in France and then my wife the way we went down to the American Embassy and you know got the American passports before before before coming back coming back to China so but I you know and I we don't have time to go into but I definitely I mean if I had to shoot and I travel on my French passport and I'd only use my American passport when I go to the States and and but not not that France is any better you know that I mean they're just as just as genocide and just as curious because you know people one of the most common questions and then I'll let you go but one of the most common questions to people that I get is Oh your German I said uh I suggest that's what you went but you're not really German are you I said yes I am I have two German citizenship but like were you born in Germany said no I wasn't aware he's one of the United States is it well then your America says know what German and then this goes back in forces to say but you haven't you're an American passport that's it no I don't well I didn't reporting nine states are youing and said you have I said no I said I don't have booth first of all I'm not allowed to have both well we're not supposed to unless you're Israeli Israelis gonna have no no but no but I mean there are you there are there the general provisions in most countries or in several countries if the country doesn't if you were born with the nationality and the country does not require you to surrender it then you don't have to even Germany especially because they don't want Turkish and other non-whites to have dual nationality they say you have to surrender one well the problem of course for Turks is a Turkish Turkey doesn't recognize the right or doesn't allow a citizen to renounce his nationality so they had all these people who were born in Germany who were who couldn't become German citizens although they never lived in Turkey because they had no capacity to renounce the citizenship that they were given by virtue of their parents but they never lived in the country and so they had to change the law it was with great resistance that they finally did change it and allowed Turks to or people Turkish descent essentially to become German citizens but their autumn without renouncing the citizenship they can't renounce now normally you have to renounce your citizenship in another country that you don't have to do it if you're a new citizen if you're a British or French and you become a German citizen you don't have to renounce your French citizenship but you do have to if you're not from the EU and since I wanted to become European citizens or whatever that's worth I had to renounce and I was glad to announce my US citizenship I had no emotional attachment to it whatsoever but I was always explained that I'm not an American because you never have to explain if you were born in signal upper volta and living in other states you cannot explain that you're an American feel is there no one said oh but you're really from you're really from Upper Volta no one says that the United States they said oh you speak English you live in the United States you're in America but if you live anyplace else and you're you were born in the United States and you speak English people to think you're American and you can't you can't explain that you're not American and I said I haven't been American for most of my life I just have been born there and I went to school there and I know some things there but I'm not American just because of that no I'm a German so I'm always curious about these people who have these sort of strange combinations of being in the United States I mean being from Oklahoma for place this year I'm sorry not many Oklahoma French yeah I bet I bet there are well I don't think there are very many Germans from places like Europe and then people say you've got a name Wilkinson they first think while you're English of course and then I say well yes my family comes from England and that's also true that doesn't make it any better but but at least it sort of adds some coherence but I should say you know I'm just a person with a piece of paper and this piece of paper that I chose to have and I would always say to people when they ask me well why Germany I said I want to belong to a club or country that doesn't make loving the country a national duty and this is really nice nobody expects me to love Germany not even people born there they're always thinking of ways to apologize for Germany I don't apologize for German having Germany's no worse than anyplace else in fact they killed fewer people than the American versico so an invention in the French and the British and the French door that says it's actually quite a nice place a relatively peaceful place they drive crazy and and there are too many of them but they're certainly not the worst offenders on the planet so I don't I don't shame myself where being the German citizen but people in Germany too have been taught to be ashamed of it they send their babies are being more ashamed of it than any other nationalities in Europe but in any case I don't have to say to everything I love Germany but and in the United States you cannot say anything unless you first proclaim from the best form on your knees how much you love United States then you can say something and then you can say something slightly critical like maybe there are too many holes in interstate 95 or something like that that's the kind of criticism you can exercise in the United States but only if you said what I love my country and that's just nauseating I mean no you really can't live like that I feel I feel I mean even though France is a there's an old you know colonial country you know they do have they did they did have the universal rights of man they you know they had sent me some great thank you to people they didn't just kill black people you know this is the thing Americans never killed anything anyone but non-life at least in the in at least in in in France they killed their king so you feel more more French than I do American so that's why I typically tell people I'm French just because I just feel more psychologically well listen dr. Wilkinson has been wonderful to have you on I'm gonna have to uh we'll do it again in June when I get to France and we'll pick up with their other questions I wanted to ask you how long are you gonna be a French two months too much I'll probably go to France if you like for my brother well that's good yeah let's get together again let's get together we'll have you up and I'll have you up in homage we're right on la mouche of the English Channel in our Mon Chou and we've got a guest bedroom oh you're so are you in Normandy or I'm going up for my birthday too – champagne okay you'll be driving close by drop by yeah well you can stay over for a couple of nights and we can have have a Portuguese wine one night in the French wine the after all right well thank you for the conversation it's been a plans eat my stuff how I love it it's your career terrific writer you're a great poet and and provocative provocative and I really loved having you on I'm sorry we had some technical difficulties and refused the Portuguese line I only have this is a this is probably more modern than my that my iPhone so I'll hopefully hopefully be able to splice this into something something that people can that can appreciate so thank you listen lovely on have a wonderful day and we'll stay in touch okay what weekend weekend bye Wow

1 thought on “Dr. T.P. Wilkinson, philosopher-poet extraordinaire, on China Rising Radio Sinoland 190513

  1. Two racially unpatriotic men. For them, it seems truth and discernment mean something.

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