List building for authors with Evan Gow of Story Origin

everybody its Joe Solari with the business of writing and today we have Evan Gao with story origin how you doing Evan pretty good thanks for having me on and and hello to everyone out there yes so uh for those that you don't know Evan has a product called story origin it helps authors with managing a lot of their marketing and we're gonna get into that in a minute but I think what a good place to start think something a lot of people don't know about you Evan is your past life and what you did before you started as the founder of story origin so I thought maybe if you talked a little bit about your time in private equity and bring some of those insights from the perspective of an investor onto all these folks out there that are business owners yeah sure I'd love to come into that you know prior to founding story origin I worked at a profit that could be funding we invested in one of the verticals that we focused on was internet and information services companies and I spent a lot of time looking at SAS companies which is software as a service or companies with recurring subscription revenue and I think there's a ton of parallels between you know how you think about investing in those kinds of companies and how you as an author think about investing in your own business yeah I think that's certainly something that a lot of authors don't think about is there you know you think yes I'm the creator I'm the I am the CEO but they never think about themselves as an investor in their business they're the single biggest investor regardless of how much capital they may have put in there certainly putting in a lot of sweat equity right so maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the things that you think are important for business owners to focus on yeah so one of the things that I think is most easy to sort of parallel between you know companies you know where you think about investing as a company and as a an author is you know an author business is very similar to these subscription services right so you can think about your series as sort of a recurring revenue stream right where someone that buys into the first book they're gonna read through into the second book the third book and then go on maybe into another series or if you've got you know a six or seven book series gonna keep reading through into that series right mm-hmm and so you you know that's sort of how you want to think about things you don't necessarily just want to think about things on a purely standalone book basis because when you're only trying to market a single book it really hampers the total lifetime value that you can get from your potential customers or readers in this case right what is the total amount of money that you'll make from any customer over the lifetime of them being a customer of yours in the more books that you write in a series the higher that lifetime value is going to be right mmm so there are you know things that you can think about is increasing your read through rate you know having more books in the series or having multiple series and then other things like you know whenever you try out a subscription product typically those companies will offer you some sort of free trial right and that's their way of letting you test out the service before really buying into it so that you can see if you like it or not so that plays into the entire idea of also having a reader magnet which is typically a short story prequel to your series you know it might be fifteen to twenty thousand words or something of the sort and you give that prequel away for free when someone signs up to your your mailing list but you're giving that away for free so that they can test you out as an author and then hopefully the read through rate on that prequel is very good and so then they ultimately want to buy into this series hmm yeah that's that's a really good analogy kind of a different Bend on it so as a small business owner and you know this because you're you're in you're doing it yourself right now you tend to not think like an investor right can you give the the audience a little insight into what your was trillium right tritium yeah pretty and tritium what tritium expectations were when they were investing in a company and kind of returns they were looking for on the money that they were putting in and yeah so typically what you want to see is but you know I would I would be the one that would typically be building the financial models mhm that was sort of one of my primary roles at tritium so taking the historical financials from the company and sort of projecting those out and we would look at what is called an internal rate of return and IRR it's basically the the the percentage return that you would get from investment every year and what we would look for is you know we would want about a 30 percent IRR what as our car gate and what that means is if you just think about it as you know like a cash on – like multiple on invested capital what you would want to look for is essentially a three times return on your investment capital over the course of five years so if you put in $1 in five years you want to get three dollars out mom and that is that is looking at things on a very long horizon because you know it was a private equity fund so you're you're investing sort of for much longer term than you are as an author as an author your investments are typically going to be a much shorter horizon where you're talking about okay I'm going to invest a dollar of ads spent here and then I want to get three dollars of revenue out and that might not be you know hopefully that's not a five year sort of sort of thing but when you're looking at SAS companies again these subscription service companies typically what you want to see is 3x return on sort of their their marketing and advertising budget because they put a dollar in you get three dollars out right so that one doll so one of those dollars goes to pays your previous you know the expense of having made the ad in the first place the next dollar goes to putting another dollar into more ads right so that you can and then that third dollar is sort of paying for your employees or in this case you know that would be sort of what you're making as an author mm-hmm you know paying for your living expenses so you want to see a 3x return on on those investments so that you can you know again pay for the previous expense pay up pony up for the next one and then also you know make money keep living so yeah but I think it's good it's a good thing for folks to understand any small business owner how an investor things for two reasons one is if you're ever in that situation where somebody wants to invest in your business how they're thinking about situation and then to is you know for most authors your you have to be a bit schizophrenic you have to be the writer you have to be the marketer you have to be the CEO you have to be the investor and if you're not shooting for those kind of targets of you know a 3x cash on cash return then you're you're not you're not going to one run the business the right way right if your investor doesn't have those your investor personality doesn't have that expectation then how can you as the manager that business do that right all right I'm sure like I've done it myself and you probably have some stories of your own like you're so passionate about a project that you're you're not looking at it from an investment perspective right okay yeah don't build it and they will come or you know I know that the markets there I just have to get to that yeah yeah I mean that can certainly be you know in in it depends on what kind of writer you want to be right not all writers are necessarily purely in it to make a living as a writer it's they have a story in their head and they want to get that out mm-hmm and I think part of being an author you know entrepreneur is figuring out what it is that you really want out of out of it is you want it to be a business where it's something that you do full-time and you're really focused on investing in it or is it something that you know you do as a side project because you get joy yeah right absolutely absolutely sure so why don't you tell us a little bit you know you left the finance world and got into software in the author space so tell us a little bit about that path and kind of where you're what got you here and what you're doing now yeah sure so I was really into writing stories back when I was in high school and then in college during my senior year I went to this program called 3 day startup you essentially suspend three days with some friends trying to build in pitch a business idea and that really is what sparked my my desire to pursue entrepreneurship full time and so when I was thinking about leaving pretty amande what I wanted to do next I you know had a bunch of ideas for things I wanted to do as an entrepreneur but I wanted to also go back to you sort of something that had been passionate about since high school which was writing and stories and so I decided to combine those passions and build a platform for writers on helping them to market so story origin takes sort of my learnings from you know both my time as an investor and on the finance side and then also you know my passion for writing and so what it is is a marketing tool that helps authors cross promote one another and so you can run newsletter swaps where those are direct one-to-one cross promotions so I'll share your book in my newsletter you share my book in your newsletter or group promotions where you me and 20 other you know steampunk authors we'll all have our books listed on a single landing page and then we all share the link to that landing page with our own newsletters and we're all cross promoting everyone that's in that group hmm so and just for some folks that may be new to this let's kind of unpack the whole idea of newsletter swaps because like CJ parried and some other guys that have been on before that I've talked about it and I you know I personally believe that for an author just beginning this is the most effective way to build an audience and figure out if you have a product to sell is through newsletter swaps and building your mailing lists so why don't you kind of get get into the basics there and how the tool helps you do that yeah so newsletter swaps you know let's say you Joe have a newsletter I'm just gonna make this up let's say it's got thousand subscribers on it I've got a mailing list with you know a thousand subscribers on it or something as well and so I can post a a post on story origin that says you know I've got a mailing list of this size it's going out in two weeks this is the book that I'm looking for people to promote and then you Joe could apply to swap with me and so you would tell me what word list size is when your campaigns going out what book you want promoted and then I can choose to either accept or decline that swap and so on the date that my campaign goes out essentially what I do is I just include a link to your book in my next newsletter mm-hmm and newsletter swaps are so that's mechanically how it works you know what is the value of doing a newsletter swap well it's fairly clear that you're going to you know get reached to other authors audiences which is awesome and I like to think of this as essentially sort of multiplying your email campaigns so let's say I've got book launch coming you know up in a month what I could do is I could schedule swaps you know a few days out of that book launch with a bunch of other authors that are in my shanwa and so I can send my own newsletter about hey I've got a new release to my newsletter of a thousand people but if I've swapped with four or five other authors that each have a thousand people on their own mailing lists then I've essentially multiplied my launch audience to know four or 5,000 people instead of just my own list hmm yeah and I think that you know there's – for my example as when I started my fiction pen name I had zero names and I used tools like story origin I don't think you're around at the time yeah and I did some some work with like art of the arcane mm-hmm and was able to get 300 names yeah on a list right and then it becomes a process of you know now once you get to a certain level like that then it starts to become easier to do swaps because right you you have some equity to trade with people right but in the beginning I was begging and just I think one of the great things about authors is there are authors that are open to they remember what it was like when they got started so they're gonna help right they're gonna give you that shot and there's a lot of Facebook groups that are John recipie to go find like if you're writing romance or if you're going to write science fiction there's tons of them out there and the other part that I think is I found helpful is as a writer is if you're in that space where you don't have a whole lot to say because you're busy writing your books or you're in the mid series whatever it might be it's so having other author of like genres to share with your audience keeps the audience engaged ends letter one for sure yeah I think that's you know I think that's something that's incredibly important right uh you know I've pulled authors that are on store origin about how frequently they send out their newsletters and a lot of authors you know I was surprised by the number of responses I got from authors that said oh I've actually experimented so I've tried one month I've tried weekly and when I do weekly my open rates and my click rates are actually higher than when I just do monthly your initial intuition might be hey I don't really want to bother people that frequently so I'm just gonna send out once a month but the thing that you're putting at risk there is you know if I only get a newsletter from you once a month I probably am not gonna remember necessarily exactly who you are why I subscribed um I think sending it out on that on a weekly basis it's much easier to build over poor with your audience and to build that real connection with them but the problem then and is you know what am I gonna talk about every week I don't have a book to launch every single week that would be crazy right I mean you know if you're if you're incredibly prolific maybe you could do something there where you've got box sets or something that you can sort of group up or maybe you're doing anthologies or short stories where you really do have sort of a story to share every week but one great way to simply keep your audience engaged is to be doing these letter swaps that like you were saying where you've got hey maybe this author is discounting it for this week and so you know your audience comes to you because they're looking for you know those deals as well and so it gives them a reason to open your an email to learn about new authors yeah yeah I think that you know I know for my myself when I was first building out that series it really made for a nice mix I think you have to figure out what your balance is you don't want it to be your newsletter is all about just other people's books and slots but I'm having a nice balance and having it appropriate I also surveyed my audience and you know there were spokes on my list that they just straight-out told me the only reason they're on my list was to get access to free books yeah and I know a lot of people get upset about that but I think it's kind of a price of Poker and over time they'll fade away as your let's change it right as the the you focus more on the books that you're selling and I think that there's kind of a natural progression away from free books to like deals on books right is when you're really get your business going and you're selling books then you're really looking more for authors that are doing deals now just can deal with that also yeah so story origin is you know there are multiple kinds of you know your your cross promotions with others on store origin whether or not their newsletter swaps or group promotions those can be for your reader magnets which are you know you're free free books that you use to build your newsletter or they can be for your books are on sale at retailers so and you can also join group sale promotions or group Kindle unlimited promotion so you're right as you build your audience as build your newsletter through story origin you can start to join less of those more newsletter builder focused cross promotions you can start to join more of those a sales focused cross promotion so that you know as you grow you're also now more focused on selling mmm-hmm story origin has a sort of a native Universal book link function which means that when readers click on that link they'll be corrected to their storefront for the correct storefront from there for their country regardless of whether they're clicking from the UK or Canada or the United States a lot of authors don't know this but Amazon has different domains for each country and so having that Universal link is super super important so it's story merging handles all of the sort of technical infrastructure for you as an author hmm yeah yes so two things kind of going back onto the newsletter building yep you know one thing you talked about the debt that magnet and I think it's important too do you have any kind of feel for like how long it takes to build a list from do you have any like days months what it it you know it totally depends on how many group promotions that you're joining and then also how big those group promotions are I will say you know it's not surprising to be able to get three or four hundred signups to your newsletter within the first month of being on story origin in terms of just like what a straight average is that's you know that's a lot more that's a lot more difficult to say just because it's totally gonna depend on how active you are all the stuff I mentioned before and then for that that met that that lead magnet the story magnet what what what's your take on what it should be yeah so you know this is purely my gut instinct I don't have data that I'm looking at necessarily because you know we saw unless you unless you're a retailer and you actually have access to like the api's of the device you don't actually ever really know what read through rates are gonna be that's the sort of thing that you want to optimize right so you want to make sure that your read rate is really high and I think there's the most you know there are two important things that one is you know the length of the book right so you don't want it to be so long that you never actually finish it and get to the next book because you know it's one it's like kind of one of the things that you think about if you're ever gonna host a podcast right like your first episode if it's an hour and a half long the probability that there that you're gonna listen to the second episode in that podcast is pretty low because unless I really like that first episode it's gonna be you know I'm probably it's gonna be sitting in my library at half finished of the first episode versus if especially because when you're starting out you're probably not gonna have a very good podcast right hmm you know production quality is going to be lower all that stuff so if you have like a 20 minute podcast as your first episode the probability someone's got finished it is much higher and then they'll go on to the second episode over time you might evolve and you might get into doing longer and longer episodes as you get better in the production quality increases the same thing applies to writing books right the shorter the book the higher the probability that read-through rate is going to be at the same time though the second thing you have think about is how invested is the reader in the story right so if it's only a 10,000 15,000 word story and I don't really you know it you know I don't really necessarily have time to get invested into the characters any sort of the overarching arts that you might have going from that prequel into the series etc you know I'm less likely to read the next book and so you have to have you have to have this balance between being short to increase your read through rate but being long so that the reader feels invested in this one and you would suggest an actual story versus a sample I yes for sure I would definitely suggest doing a story rather than a sample you know a lot of authors will sometimes just use like a 10% preview of a book you can get a 10% preview of most books on Amazon so you're not necessarily really delivering any value to that reader and I find that a lot of times readers might just get upset if it's a preview and not the full book mmm I would I would much rather have a happy reader and when that feels you know emotionally invested in the story that I'm telling then one that's you know didn't get to get all the way through the story and they're not in in so they're upset about that and they don't and now they also don't really feel super invested because it's only ten percent of course yeah yeah you know it it totally depends probably works really well for some authors and probably doesn't work as well for other authors because it also depends on where the sort of the pacing of your story as well and where you know where that ramp is and sort of the climax of your story and are they emotionally invested at that point are they willing to go out and actually buy the book yeah yeah not and that's something I've kind of heard too from other folks is that you know the first three chapters a lot of folks that actually is counter productive because they're like yeah I was expecting a whole book and I know right I've seen some folks that are running promotions where they explicitly say no samples it's got to be great they're fine if it's only a 15,000 word story or tempo right but it's got to be a story and then what's your excuse me what's your feedback on book covers for so getting leave as part of your lead magnet yeah so I mean for for your lead magnet or your reader magnet you want to make sure that the you're providing the same quality in that reader magnet as you're going to provide in your series right so because that is again that's like the readers free trial version of you of you as an author right so if I have a bad experience with a free trial I'm not gonna subscribe to that product if I have a bad experience reading the reader magnet I'm not gonna want to buy into the series so you have to make sure that you have a super high quality reader magnet in that you know matters both for the cover and in terms of the editing so you want to have a really high quality cover so that you can entice readers to actually click on it want to download it and read it you have to make sure that that cover also is in line with sort of the genre of the actual story itself right because there's two different genres there's a genre that the book cover says that the reader is going to get and there's the genre that is the actual story itself and you have to make sure that those things are in line because if a reader feels like they've been tricked into reading a book that's not of the genre that they like again that readers not going to go on too by into your series right so you want to make sure everything's sort of on point mmm good good advice so what do you what I know you've been doing a lot of work recently in upgrading some things and adding new features why don't you kind of give the folks a feel for like how the suite works and kind of hit two points right yeah but there's more to it than just that why did you talk about like how how you're envisioning this being used as a marketing tool yeah so um one of the newest things that I've released like you were saying before you have people on your list that are you know just there for the free books and they're not necessarily there for anything else those readers can still be valuable to you right so I think of I think of you know looks as having three different kinds of economic value right there's the signing up to the newsletter right which when you give me your email address you're giving me some sort of economic value because then I can mark it to you when I have a new book to watch and then there's the you know straight just you might buy my book like when I'm doing a group sale or I'm doing a group Kindle unlimited promotion where I'm trying to increase my page reads the the economic value that you're driving there is straight money right people are paying for your book or they're reading Patriots and that's you know that comes back to you as an author and then the third sort of economic value that you can get is reviews right and those reviews are help you build social proof which will you know increase the probability that someone's going to actually buy the book whenever they're looking at your sales page for it mmm so reviews is sort of the third economic value that and that a reader can give you and you know you might have a bunch of sort of food levy seekers on your list but those freebie seekers they might you know they might be on a budget you know you don't necessarily know the reason that they're not willing to spend money on books might be that they're on a fixed income what have you but they can be still still be super valuable as being reviewers of your books right mm-hmm and so the the latest feature that I've introduced on story origin is review copies and review copies are essentially a way to upload a book to story origin and then readers can apply for review copies of that book and you can see before you approve that reader you know how many reviews have they completed on books that they've requested before on story origin so that you have a good idea of whether or not they're going to complete the review when if you approve them for review copy of your book mm-hmm and so those sorts of freebie seekers can still be super valuable because you know if you upload a review copy you send it out to your mailing list then you get a bunch of requests you can sort of look at those and approve them on a case-by-case basis and then you can build reviews on your books and that can be you know those reviews can be all the major retailers so Amazon Kobo Google Apple and and Barnes and Noble and then also on bookbub or Goodreads right so in story origin handles that entire process for you automatically reminds a reader if after they've had over two weeks to leave a review if they still haven't left it yet and you know you basically don't need to do any of that that tracking and manual very manual process to track all that now with that how do you get those reviewers or those people off of my list or are you is there a community building of reviewers on story origin can you talk to more to that yeah so my vision for story origin in terms of what you know what it is and what it provides is a the underlying technical infrastructure for authors to cross-promote and collaborate with one another right so you could upload a review copied a story origin and just send it out to your own mailing but the feature that I just released last week is group promotions for review copies so now we as you know you me and 20 other steampunk authors can create a landing page that has you know all of our review copies listed and then readers can apply to request those review copies in each one of us as authors we get to approve or reject those you know requests on a case-by-case basis snow and all of that all that great stuff but again it's all about us cross promoting that landing page so we're all helping each other out story origin is what I what I see it as is that that underlying infrastructure that helps authors work together excellent excellent yeah I mean that's I don't think anybody's really doing anything like oh no yeah it's yeah totally unique to story rich and there's you well in it it's powerful in the sense of you know there's been so much you know foul play with reviews and to have a way to help authors to manage that and to get you know quality reviews that's gonna it's going to be helpful you know for sure you know certainly from all the research that I've seen you know having some decent social proof for your books is you know it's not as important as a book cover but it's up there right like when they see people the heatmap where people go to it's kind of like they'll look at reviews before they look at descriptions a lot of times yeah for sure I mean I know from my own personal experience I definitely will check you know how many reviews and what the star rating is I might not necessarily read all the reviews first but that's one of the first things that I look at and the other thing that reviews are really important for is if you want to you know if you want to apply and get accepted for paid newsletter promotions a lot of the spots in those newsletter promotions they'll only give to you if you have X number of reviews on your book and when you're when your new indie author just starting out you know or you've got a new release it's really hard to get all those reviews lined up and have them there on launch day so with store origin those review copies can be either for pre publication or post publication you've noticed maybe that I keep saying review copies instead of arts and that's the reason right the review copies feature on story origin isn't purely for Advance to review copies it's you know pre or post publication so you can create your review copy on story origin pre-publication build up that list of people that are ready to review on launch day through those group cross promotions and then on launch day when you've published the book it'll you can mark it as published on the story origin it'll send an email to those people who who have gotten review copies and say hey you know this book is published now you can go and leave your reviews that at these various links and so so yeah and then from there it's okay now I've got my ten or however many reviews I need let me let me buy into some paid newsletter promos so that I can keep this momentum going hmm yeah and I also think if you're what came to my mind is if I was looking at a strategy where like well I think I need to be better represented on a different platform right yep I could I could target that platform and say hey I'm looking for people to review an apple if I'm wide or if I'm trying to get something going on bookbub right yep that's right so with with review copies on story origin essentially what you do is you post all the links where you have that book available so you know that might be all this retailers plus book bobbin in Goodreads and then you as the author you can mark particular retailers as ones that were prioritizing for when you want to give out those review copies and so when readers apply they'll see which you know platforms you're prioritizing for where you want reviews and they can say you know okay yeah I will I will review at those ones that you're prioritizing and you as the author you get to see which platforms they're planning on reviewing at so let's say you've got a hundred reviews on Amazon you're not really focused on that as getting more reviews they're what you where you really want reviews let's say our Goodreads in bookbub if I get a request from someone that says they're only gonna review on Amazon I can decline that request for that review copy mm-hmm and if someone says that they're gonna review it on Goodreads and bookbub which I've prioritized then it then I'll approve that person for review copy because that's why I'm trying to build my reviews mm-hmm so that's kind of the latest thing is there other stuff you think folks need to know about with the product um you know I would say the the other thing what story origin is just like a lot of those a lot of those cross promotions and links that you get will all be tracking link so that there's transparency in the community which is really big part of it because you can organize all all the kinds of cross promotions that we've talked about you could have organized on your own WordPress website you could organize them through Facebook groups and Google Forms and all that stuff but at the end of the day there's still a free rider problem of you know authors who aren't giving back to the community they're not you know you know they're not lifting the hand they're not stretching a hand out to those people who had to come up through the same process that they did right and so this story origin makes that super transparent that you know when you do a newsletter swap with someone you're both getting tracking links and you can go and you can see before you swap with someone how many how many links how many clicks did they send this other author and their past swap so that you actually know whether or not that person is going to hold up their end of the bargain which isn't something that you can get through really any other platform or you know through Facebook groups or anywhere else right so story origin is sort of also helps you build up your reputation and D in the author or in the author community in general mm-hmm I think you missed a big one which is it's free yeah yeah yeah so story origin is also in what I'm calling an open beta which basically means it's all the features are completely free to use no restrictions on anything as many downloads as you want collect subscribers all that kind of stuff um and you know the reason I'm doing that isn't because you know story origin is a crappy piece of software you know one of the the reviews that I get most frequent frequently from authors is that actually Store origin as a like the user interface and all of that stuff is a much better platform than a lot of other things that they've tried um the reason that it's free right is because I'm still working out what the pricing model is gonna be because that's super important to me I really want to make sure that I'm providing you a strong return on investment for investing in story origin and so I want to make sure that I have that sort of case nailed down before I figure out what the pricing models go mmm but that being said like if you sign up for the the you know open beta now you're still gonna get it free for several months even after it becomes paid and even when it does become paid for you maybe it's gonna be you know it's not gonna be extremely or prohibitively expensive they'll probably be you know something like ten or fifteen bucks a month or something like that because again they're like what I'm really focused on is providing you a return on investment yeah so kind of from from what I know of your background you're you're you when when you do finally figure out what that that model is your intention is do you want to keep as many paid subscribers as possible to keep that recurring revenue going like you're sharing with authors best for sure and it's to really have it something that's fitting for whatever your your eka your economic level is right so yeah but the main thing is right now there's no there's no tricks there's free and at some point that will change but you the more people you get on this thing the easier it's gonna be for you to find figure out what everybody needs and to make it right valuable product for everybody so exactly yeah and I mean you could you could go out there and try to cobble together everything that story origin does right now you know we haven't really talked about it at all but story origin on those like Universal book links and all that kind of stuff you can still add like your Facebook pixel and so you can still get you still get those like advanced features even with story origin for those like for those who are super in the grain with all their marketing and all that kind of stuff so so yeah you could go out and you could try to cobble together some set of platforms which replicate what story origin does but doing so would probably be pretty expensive because some of these platforms you know like if you look at net galley that's like hundreds of dollars right in story origin essentially provides the same service so you might have something that you use for reviews you might use have something used for reader magnets and landing pages you might have something that you use for like your Universal book links you might have something that used for newsletter swaps you might have different platforms for solving all these various problems in story washing sort the all-in-one package and hey isn't it nice that you can use like completely for free right now so cool well where can they find this product and how do they get in touch with you yeah so you can go to story origin app calm and you know my email address is Evan at story or JM so it's and it's right there if you see if you have trouble figuring out how to spell that out my email address is right there on the contact page on story origin and it's like right there at the bottom when you scroll down to the bottom on the front page I'm super transparent about Who I am what I'm doing everything so feel free to shoot me an email if you ever have questions yeah and then don't you have a Facebook group or like yeah there is yeah there is a Facebook group as well called story origin authors so if you search story origin authors on Facebook you'll find the Facebook group you can join their shoot me a friend request if you want or you know you can even message me on Facebook if you have questions like again super transparent about Who I am what I'm doing all that kind of stuff so yeah I'm happy to communicate whatever way works for you great right so anything else you want to kind of add stuff that's coming out or like you're important you know I think I think we covered it all I mean you know I'm always upgrading and improving features on story origin and so so yeah I mean there's definitely still stuff that I'm going to be doing to improve the platform even more from where it is now but you know nothing necessarily that's that's worth sharing right now great all right well thanks for coming on and sharing all that and keep us in the loop as far as anything that comes up in in in the future that will help authors make their business grow awesome thanks for having me on Joe all right talk to you later Ivan hey thanks bye

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