Mark Manson, author of "Everything Is F*cked: A Book About Hope" on low quality relationships & more

McCarthy show welcome back to that Jamie McCarthy show I'm Jenny McCarthy warburg all my lovely book readers out there heads up another great book everything is fucked to say a book about hope ha ha ha what our position I might at mark how are you I'm great mark Manson is back his first book the subtle art of not giving a fuck bloggers internet entrepreneur congratulations on the – thank you you're a roll buddy I guess so I'm on a fucking roll why use fuck in the book well with the first one it was definitely it was conscious decision to like get a lot of attention and this one it's like okay now your brand so right so the publisher kind of just you know initially when they first like over they open to it the first book what what's funny is that it was a very difficult conversation debate that was had about using it in the first book and now there's like 15 books with it exactly your time buddy exactly so if everything is truly fucked how can there be hope mark well the the little spoil the spoiler alert is uh everything's always been farts and it's always gonna be fucked and you need things to be fucked to have hope if everything was perfect then you'd have nothing to look forward to be so boring exactly I try to tell my son I'm like you wouldn't know happiness if there wasn't sadness yeah you know and everything is a lesson so to speak so how do you get through the fucked times well it's I think we're all working on that right now but um I have some arguments that I make in the book you know regarding you know social media and and our relationship to technology our relationship to the politics and I think really mostly people just need to chill the fuck out and what do you think what's your perspective on why because it's a collective type of anger yes and bullying that's happening the mob that comes out and attacks and it's a collective one so it's stronger and meaner and bear why is that happening it's what's fascinating too is that it's happening on both sides of the political spectrum and it's happening globally you know so I was traveling all these other countries to promote subtle art and I'd see the same awful bullshit you know and everywhere I went it's almost like we're all connected yeah well it's for me it really suggests that there's something about media and technology that's changed and the argument that I make is that essentially what we've done is we've traded out having a few very high-quality relationships with having lots and lots of low-quality relations and when you do that there there are psychological repercussions for that you don't say she ate your human need for connection and relationship and intimacy the same way that you do you know spending a lot of time face-to-face with somebody replacing one good friend with like a hundred Facebook friends is is it's just a bad it's a recipe for disaster so then is there something inside of us that like turns on a switch that makes us a mean why couldn't it be filled with them love because because it's so when you remove those high quality relationships people start to kind of I call them crises of hope but it's essentially just depression anxiety you know people are like what the fuck am I doing with my life like nothing seems to matter nobody seems to actually care you know what I'm doing and so people compensate for that by throwing themselves into two causes you know finding their little subgroup online basically becoming the mob because that gives them some sense of meaning and hope and their life at it so they attach themselves onto a story yes that they and then surround themselves put themselves in a bubble literally so anytime they've gone gone elsewhere though I cannot agree with my point yep yeah and it's it's it's really fascinating too because it's not a lot of times it's not even organized like it's I saw this interesting video a couple weeks ago talking about how conspiracy theories have changed you know it used to be you know everybody had a conspiracy theory about like JFK you know so there was like a very important political moment now you get stuff like pizza gay like stuff it doesn't make sense you know it's just like other pedophiles this pizza shop like let's go get them you know and it's but it's it's this people just kind of collecting these groups and they spin up these stories that make them feel like heroes and and give them hope essentially be feeling like they belong to something exactly because we all want to feel like we belong yeah somewhere you know even like weirdos want to find other weirdos absolutely absolutely so then the anger balls though collectively have manifested themselves around the world it's it's quite scary a little bit if we don't start waking up to that realization yes because this younger generation doesn't know what it's like to not have it we know what it's like to have awkward moments in person and have to say things to people in person but God knows then what our future is gonna look like are we all been fucked yeah well we're always fucked but but it's it's it is really concerning because this is such a fundamental part of what makes us healthy people you know is having those awkward interactions you know getting your heart broken a little bit like that that is actually what creates a sense of intimacy and belonging in your life and people are just not getting that you know one of the most horrifying studies that I came across when I was doing research for this book they ran a survey I think back in the 1980s and they asked people this was in the US they asked people they said how many people do you have in your life that you feel like you could tell a personal secret and the most common answer was three people they ran the same survey I think like 2011 2012 most common answer was zero interesting study that's fascinating right yes like what does that say it's really sad it is I mean sometimes and I could speak from my own journey that you know those rock-bottom moments were so valuable for me they're the most important so the question the big question is is that a future that we can see for everyone that it happens then that's gonna happen for like will people wake up I mean can only hope I guess yeah but but the irony is that is that you know the it's part of the problem so I did kind of the same thing with this book that I did with subtle art you know subtle art I think I created a title that people you know would walk through the airport be like oh I wish I didn't give a fuck I'll buy this and then you start reading it you're like oh shit I have to give a fuck about so oh god okay and I kind of did the same thing with this because I feel like a lot of people are struggling with hope right now and they're struggling you know both with like our politics but also you know just like the way just the way the world is going in general and and so I wanted to write a book that you know people would buy it it's like oh I want some hope somebody I need to find hope somewhere and then you start reading it and you realize that it's that desperate need to find hope in your life that is creating a lot of the problems that is like leading to those anger balls as you said yes and that we need to be a little bit more skeptical of like what we put all of our faith into yeah what we put out there yeah do you dive into because I just I talk about all the time but like finding that space in between finding the thoughtfulness before action yeah teaching people that maybe take a moment oh absolutely and it's I think there's you know one of the problems in general is just we're losing we're losing the ability to sit with pain we're just and and part of it is just we're being enabled you know the technology makes it so easy to kind of just need your to everything distract yourself avoid stuff or just lash out at somebody and as a result we're losing that ability to just sit with something that sucks for a while yeah and and that's again that's that's like where the magic is it really is I mean I learned that from my like I got from my own life but I used to I'm like say you've got a and I don't know where it came from but in order to heal it you got to feel it yep and so when I have those like ooh feelings we just want to crawl a little right body and I'm like reaching for a drink or the internet or something I go like just fucking feel because I realized that by numbing it you're putting a pause and development and how many of us and how many people do we know that have done that or have turned to drugs or alcohol and then recovered by age 40 but that you're spiritually still stuck in college yes absolutely it's amazing how your spiritual development suffers so much yeah anytime that you put a pause on your development or feeling yeah and it's you know one of the arguments I make in the book too is that what we're seeing is people are basically just not maturing you know it's if you look at if you look at like people who are the problems that people who are like you know in their 20s or 30s it's the problems that teenagers had 50 years ago and if you look at people in the 40s and 50s they're acting like 20 year olds you know and it's I think there's something that's just along gating that maturity process and and I think you you described it pretty well it's like when you're constantly able to distract yourself and avoid the difficult lessons and avoid the awkward moments because those awkward moments is what makes you mature and so if you're not having those then you're just gonna kind of have this this Peter Pan mindset and then you find yourself in relationships and playing games you would did in high school oh yeah the jealousy games the silent treatment yeah you're like I'm sorry what is the other me plugs a bookie and everything is fucked a book about hope by the way all of my friends got your other book and literally drove me crazy because they got it at different times yeah you have to get this author and I'm like we've had a moment do you you were one of the first men yeah it's funny cuz the f-word nobody wanted to touch me when the book came out like nobody wanted to have me on and you were one of the first actually so credit to you you were referred to something as uncomfortable truth yes what is the uncomfortable truth is just the realization that uh in the grand scheme of things in the grand scheme of the universe were very insignificant in our actions to have no consequences that we're all gonna that we're all gonna die know it like nobody's gonna miss us our whole species gonna be wiped out one day and you know like that's just uh that's just the truth but we avoid that so is it kind of like are you trying to also say don't sweat the small stuff because this matter well this is the funny thing about the uncomfortable truth I think anybody who's gone through depression is like struggled with this of just like well nothing fucking matters like you know I'm gonna die and everybody knows gonna die it's you can either approach it as a very depressing thing or or it can become a very liberating thing because it's like if if we're all gonna die and none of this nobody's gonna remember any of this shit there's no reason to not love fiercely if there's no reason to not act courageously there's no reason to not have integrity take risks yes and so it's it's you can look at it either as a as a something to despair about or you can look at it as something that that can liberate you hopefully liberate I feel like so do we have control over everything or anything anything apparently not philosophy on that you have destiny it's you know it's mapped out for you but your free will where's your head on that I think freewill is is uh it's it's something that we experience subjectively so I think it's it's you know it's ultimately our experiences that we're choosing everything and and that's what matters even if we're not really in control of our own choices even if we're kind of just everything's it's just a bunch of dominoes that are getting knocked over we experience our life as a series of choices and so it's important to think in terms of choices what about people who are stuck I've met a lot of people who are like you know in their 40s whatever age you are we just feel like they're at a crossroad they're not sure if they should get a divorce so they don't know if they should switch jobs they don't know they're stuck it's just stuck mm-hmm what is your advice to them I think you know it depends on what they feel stuck about but I mean generally speaking I think you know life short and so it's the bigger the risk you need to take you know even if you fall flat on your face it's gonna be an incredible learning experience so I would just I just err on the side of risk if I ever feel stuck I just kind of think to myself it's like okay what is what is kind of a drastic thing that would really shake this up and it might hurt a lot but at least they'll be shaken up at least I'll be moving again that's right taking some type of action yeah and maybe asking yourself questions what is the fear yeah what is that underlining fear fear in guilt that's gets people so stuck yes and it's funny too because people who were stuck there you know they're always like you know like I don't want to quit my job cuz then you know what if I don't find another one I'll be really unhappy and that's like well you're already fuckin unhappy so like like you're losing nothing you could be unhappy doing something new or unhappy doing the same old thing so that's pretty funny everything is fucked a book about hope you do talk about money in the book mm-hmm what is the relationship about money I argue that that money is essentially it's just a it's kind of a medium that represents people's feelings about things so I have a thing called the feelings economy which is essentially that everybody spends money on things that make them feel good people are very irrational about like what what we spend money on what what choices we make and so if you kind of like extrapolate that out across a population money accrues to people who are able more able to manipulate people's perceptions or feelings and and manipulate is like a loaded word it sounds very evil but it's you know it can be influenced as well exactly so it's it's is it deceiving though are you I mean I understand what you mean we're it's not necessarily you can look at it like a bad thing but then how are you supposed to do some actual spiritual work then on how you spend your money well so yeah so I mean money then you can look at money is essentially just an extension of your emotional health great way of saying it so if you're like constantly broke and spending money on stupid shit that says something about where you are in terms of your relationship with yourself right and wanting a quick high yeah exactly it's the numbing thing and so it's learning to I guess discipline yourself financially make smart purchasing decisions it's the same thing as you know learning to be patient and argument with your spouse you know it's the same muscle I love the way to find that I'm now I'm just thinking about how these shoes I thought would make myself feel better I do want to bring up some time what about religion because yeah if it was such a huge factor in my life growing up and for other people's but I feel like there's transition and there's a people waking up to spirituality and maybe losing labels but where do you stand on that uh so one I wanted it's hard to write a book about hope without talking about religion but one one of the points I wanted to make like if you look at the data you know 50 years ago like 90 95 % of the population was religious they were like Christian or Jewish or whatever today it's like 60 maybe back then it was I think like 70 80 percent of people attended church regularly now it's like 30 percent and so there's a lot of people talk about the decline in religiosity but one of the arguments I make is as I say I think what's happened is it's not people are becoming less religious they're just transferring their faith onto more worldly things so if you look at how religious our behavior is around politics now for instance how religious our behavior is around brands if you think of like Apple or Nike how religious our behavior is around like celebrities so it's not that we're becoming less religious it's just that we're worshipping that's fascinating so those Crusades are turning into Crusades and politics and yeah which is a huge problem because for a democracy to function you can't you have to like listen to people you don't like but it's like if this is if this is turned into your little mini religion that you know you're on your crusade and this is what gives you hope you're just not gonna listen to people right you don't listen to me or you don't like what I have to say off with your head so it kind of feels like exactly I hope people read this book and we can all kind of wake up and you know have the hope that you talk about everything is fucked a book about hope it's out now Mark Manson thank you so much thanks for having me love your books can't wait to finish this one we'll be right back guys thanks Jenny McCarthy show you

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