Sir oswald mosley welcome to a special two-day program When I say welcome, you know And I know that throughout London a great many Jewish viewers will not welcome your presence on this program Why should any Jewish person now watch you and listen to you? Well, if they were, some of them have abused me so much. They might be interested to see why. But in fact, there are many great misunderstandings in politics. Now, let us be absolutely clear about this question. I was never anti-semitic and I’ll define anti-semitic by that. I mean someone who attacks Jews on account of race so uncountable religion I had a quarrel not with some Jews not with all Jews But with some Jews about one subject whether there should be a Second World War or not Now coming back from the First World War after that time in the air and in the trenches and in the loss of all my friends I was very strongly against another war and it seemed to me rightly or wrongly. That’s a question we could debate that certain Jews were trying to provoke a second world war because their compatriots or Co-religionists were admittedly having a very bad time in Germany. Now. I do not think that a minority in this country Should pursue a policy contrary to the national interest which can and in fact which did result in the loss of 50 million lives That gave rise to a very bitter quarrel of the period in which harsh things were said and harsh things done Which they attacked our meetings, but I was not before that and I have not been since or even at the time was not anti-semitic Because not all Jews were involved but only some sir Oswald your answer as you well know Begged so many questions that I have to put to you Well, I’ll come to those in a moment. But let me stay with were not anti-semitic not anti-semitic To refer to hecklers as the sweepings of the ghetto well, the people who just come in it is very rough these meetings then shouting every insult every abuse at The speaker and he sees that they have just come in from Central Europe From totally different conditions to break up another meeting gives them a rough answer. I might have said that to any foreigners Who came in to try and break up an English meeting? Of course it was rough. People don’t understand now in those great mass meetings Which some people were trying to break up and the speaker had to hold his own and if you saw that they’d come From another country to break up an English meeting you gave them a rough answer Now you say that your argument with what with them was that you wish to prevent a second world war.
-Would not your Arguments have been better addressed to Hitler? The argument was not a second world war. – Yes to prevent a second world war. If you wanted to have an argument with someone would not the argument Would not the argument be better address to Hitler rather than the Jews? Well, Hitler was driving east. I, my policy on my party. There’s a totally different thing Fascism in every country was a strongly national movement. Therefore was totally different in its form policy and method. I had wanted conduct further and better. A great Commonwealth of Nations Had to have a multiracial policy He wanted to unite the Germans in Eastern Europe, and I did not Want to intervene in a world war to stop him doing it. I thought a war between Germany and Russia was better than a war between Germany and Britain. That gave rise to the quarrel. Sir Oswald, do you now Looking back with the hindsight and knowledge of history Blame the Jews or Hitler for the Second World War? I blame both. I blame both in that Hitler was impatient. He wanted to drive East, unite his own people and When we signed the guarantee with Poland. So rather like blaming the victim of a rapist, of a rapist for the rape, isn’t it? Well, no, wait a minute, let us look at it clearly. While Hitler was driving east to unite his own people, We gave a guarantee to Poland which we could only implement by a world war In fact, we couldn’t save Poland. We didn’t. It’s like signing a bouncing cheque Well now the agitation to make us do those ridiculous things like guaranteeing Poland and the other side of Europe Was largely due to the influence of some Jews. Therefore I say that both were responsible. Hitler for driving East before he had got a diplomatic arrangement with us. Jews for gradually persuading us or the British people or government to do absurd things which were bound to result in war. All those people made tremendous mistakes. I was against both mistakes. I’m against the persecution of Jews or any other minority. I’m also against giving guarantees which you cannot honor. That’s what caused the world war. When did your conversion to be against the persecution of Jews begin? Well, I never wanted to persecute Jews myself. I simply defended my meetings from Jewish attacks. Take the Olympia meeting. They marched two miles from East London. Afterwards East London swung over to me. But at that time it was against. What was it like? I tell you exactly it was like I Went along to make a speech to an enormous audience a record audience opening the great Olympia hall. People who had marched from East London entered the hall in order to break it up I had 1500 stewards in the black shirt, so they could recognize each other. That’s why. In order to stop them doing it. The fighting was then very protracted. Inside my meeting I wasn’t going to break up my own meeting. They were doing that. Then the cinema lights which were there in great force were swung off the platform onto the Audience where the fights were occurring, and some people very foolishly said that I wanted that to happen. Well I’ve never known yet a speaker who wanted the searchlight turned off himself and on to other people. And that was done by the cinema lights naturally. If I then had intervened by force ask my people to swivel the lights back on to me what an outrage it would be supposing the Lights were turned off me now onto something else and I had people around me went and turned them back under me you’d rightly think It an outrage and that was done by the cinema companies who wanted a story It wasn’t my done by me. Quite an you’ve described what was happening in there But I’m actually asking you is how you felt addressing what was by any standards a huge rally. Did you then feel that the millennium had come and that power was yours for the taking? Oh good heavens No, it took me I’ve spoken all over the country for seven years I spoke at enormous meetings far the greatest ever held in this country and three years later after that I addressed an audience twice as big, no four or five years later in 1939, twice as big in the exhibition hall at Earls Court never been filled for a meeting on any other occasion and that meeting was Absolutely orderly, immensely enthusiastic because the attempt to break up our meetings had been defeated Force was used against us and we used force in return. I hate force I had more than enough, of course for a fighting in air and trench in the first war. That when my meetings were attacked I either had to close down Or defend them and I organized their defense and we won. We had orderly meetings and that was our whole offense. Do you really hate force, Sir Oswald? Or do not in fact have a hankering as a man of action For the quick result that force can achieve. No, no, no. All that nonsense was knocked out of my generation in the First World War. I was flying against the Germans in 1914 to 1915 when the average life was three months. All my friends were killed. I was later in the trenches with my own regiment. With my whole generation well practically my whole generation was wiped out. A man who’s been through the first war, they had a Real hatred of war and of violence. But then if you found a political movement and come out of politics with a certain praise of what you’ve thought about and what you’ve done and you Try to go on talking to the same audience as you have before and people with armed force come to break it up What do you do blow them a kiss and say “Goodnight, I’m retiring from politics” or say “You’re not going to do this, I’m going to defend my meetings.” I stood firm and defended them. But does violence in fact attract violence? Precisely they used violence against us and we had to use violence in return. But I don’t like it. I hate it. But what. Do you have in you, however, Sir Oswald a Concept of the hero? Of the hero? Yes. Well, I think that an element of the heroic is necessary to all great nations. Britain was founded the British Empire and everything else that we have Was founded by heroism. Men who went out to the far corners the world and did heroic things. But it should be constructive heroism in the service of a great people, in the service of humanity. I have people who who done marvels in in medicine and in science and that sort of thing are equally heroic. It’s not simply a military virtue. That I think an element of heroism is what is perhaps lacking today. But I’m convinced the British people are still capable of it and in a great crisis can show heroic qualities. Which should be a vote. Who are your heroes? In in history? In our history the great Chatham. They kept him out of politics, out of power All his life. They gave him four years towards the end of it and he gave them in return everything they’ve got. Immediately performed that service they got rid of him again and Any man of action who does anything for our people or any people for that matter, he’s well-advised when he’s done he stop. He’s performed his great service to go into retirement when he’s done it. Chatham was one example but there are many others in British history I also give a great part to Marlborough The original Churchill. Who was a great, two great men Marlborough and his descendant Winston. Extreme opposite of character in every respect and Marlborough and Chatham I would put with the two great Latins: Julius Caesar and Napoleon and with the two great to two great Teutons the Hohenstaufen and the Hohenzollern Frederick’s. I Should give those six men as the examples of supreme men of action in history. And when sometimes I’m accused of having modeled myself on this man or that and all that sort of stuff. My simple reply is when I, going in for action, study the great models If you’re going to play tennis then study the champions at Wimbledon, study their strokes. See how they do it and I did study all those, that kind of person and it’s very essential to do it. That doesn’t mean you identify yourself with them. It merely means that you learn from great performers how to do certain things. It is interesting of course that you can choose Chatham who as you say was kept out of political life nearly all his life and Then drawn back. In a shorter interview that which we did recently you Gave me the impression that you still believe the Corps might come for you. Do you really believe that? Oh yes, I’m much better now than I’ve ever been in my life. I’ve still got – Better at what Sir? better at politics that is I’ve got health and bigger every capacity I ever had and Added to it a vast Experience and I hope more wisdom than I had when I was young. At least that seems to be the impression of a good many people. Therefore while you have the health and strength you go on improving. Experience and wisdom which comes with age is a splendid thing. Of course When you you you you get past it all And the physical people and the rest of it then it is over. And any man of any sense recognizes it. That happily history abounds in cases of men who went on to ten or fifteen years Older than I am now and did extraordinary things. Therefore I find that I feel that my whole life has been a training for what can now come. and if I was wanted to perform any part, I don’t care what. I would gladly do anything I could for this country. But who on earth would ask you? Well they only ask people when, when it’s necessary. When that man alone has the experience and the proved capacity and willpower to meet a difficult and desperate situation. Anyhow, my life has proved a certain will will power, and a certain capacity to endure and come through supreme difficulties. Which are exactly what this nation will be faced with very shortly. The poet Yeats said “Why should not old men be mad”, isn’t it a form of madness to believe at 78 that the country will call you. No, because countries have called back men much older than me. With great advantage and things have been done in other spheres of literature, of art, of philosophy as well. By very old men. The only one of two questions are: does the situation require such a man? Is he still capable of doing something effective? Those are the two questions which our audience and the British people’s are perfectly capable of judging for themselves. That I have not yet seen anybody else in the present situation who can meet the crisis which is coming So what would your nation be like then? What would your Britain be like? I’ll tell you exactly, exactly what I should propose I think in a crisis You should have a government drawn from the whole country. I don’t mean just a coalition of parties which have failed. That will probably happen it like it did with Baldwin and McDonald before. Would it include Jews? What? Would it include Jews? If they’re any good Yes I know there’s certainly one or two of them who are absolutely first-rate particularly in science and so on. Now what I propose a government drawn from the whole country at a certain point From politics the best certainly from business from some of the younger trade unionists who certainly would be available I think from the universities the prom The the fighting services I should certainly include as well Because in a very dangerous situation you want a few members of my original profession the professional army Because men are trained to danger in that situation are very vulnerable and such a government elected by the people at a general election entirely democratic informed subject to dismissal any day by the consequent Parliament if they abused power But given the power to act a while they are there Just as the Board of Directors is given power to act by the shareholders and sect if they don’t do the job properly I think that is the modern form of government entirely democratic Combining the two essential things the power to act with individual liberty, which must be scrupulously preserved No, suspending of habeas Corpus Act. We’re all there are traitors from which I’ve suffered myself Habeas Corpus Act personal liberty always there in this country till it’s needed the moments of the crisis They scrap it and put people in jail without trial Absolutely wrong. Give a government power to act certainly dismiss it if it doesn’t do the job and preserve with cost How do we dismiss it out there would still be a negative there would still be elections Oh suddenly exactly as today that any party might enter the elect and that the people should choose but if they give a party, or a newly constituted government Or proposed government if they give it power now, that is I’m a parliamentary majority That majority should give it the part act and should sack them if they don’t act properly We have little until the people vote for them. The question doesn’t arrive We have a substantial black and brown and colored population in this country. Now would they be represented in your government? They’d have a vote in every constituency. They’d be in your government If any if any of them was a first-rate man, he certainly would be yes. What’s a first-rate man, sir? the straight man approved capacity in any sphere Scientists and people like that who had nothing whatever to do with politics would certainly be included in the kind of government I suggest the politicians would be in a minority And if some black or some Asian had proved himself in some sphere as an outstanding, man he’d obviously be a most welcome member of any government that was formed if he hadn’t been sent home under your Repatriation schemes well repatriation. That is I was against of course and that is quite often Discussed all the time against another coming here. That is I took a stand way back in 55 I bought an election on the subject in 59 the very strange and dubious election And I stood for that of that policy I think several or several years before mr Powell ever thought of such a thing while his Minister of Health and introducing colored nurses into the hospital service Then I was strongly against the theme from the start when it was perfectly easy to stop it But now that we’ve got anything. Well, the figures are very much disputed. We don’t have a very large a number. Yeah It’s a much bigger operation to secure any Repatriation and it can only be done in a humane and a decent way and I think that means the whole of Europe facing the problem together and Enabling conditions in their homelands to which they will wish to return I think it’s possible to solve that problem in a decent and humane way But he miserably more difficult than it was in 1955 when I first stated publicly That immigration of that kind should be stopped This seems to me the thing that has bedeviled you all your life. Yes would at you That you put forward and advance Ideas, obviously in the thirty major economic ideas that might have insured probably should have been taken up But all we shall be deviled by this desire to find a scapegoat Which will rally people around you in the thirties the Jews in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s the blacks Who next no well the the answer is I think very plain and simple I was against certain Jews not all Jews because they were Agitating up a war I was against the import of a completely different alien population which would the devil our whole civilization and has done it but that is the only form of Prejudice of that kind which can ever be charged against me for instance as The Times reported recently in a long article a Study of that period I stood against the persecution of the Irish Having had to fight them as a professional soldier at the end of the first war I strongly opposed that of the treatment of them by the Black and Tans and Was appraised in my early life of my humane treatment of such people I stand against atrocity and bullying and I still feel the same today I am passionately against any ill treatment of prisoners or the underdog but in those two cases It was necessary to take action Against a minority who were agitating for war or against the import of another population in an overcrowded Island which has dynasty miserable home that we cannot deal with it brutally and in humanely We’ve got to deal with it if we deal on a great scale with the whole of Europe making Arrangements for a fair return of people to their native lands and that means an enormous Enterprise because he’s got to be conditions to which they wish to return When you say and when you think about this call, that will come Why should the call come what is wrong with the political leaders now? Well, I tell you exactly what is wrong, though They’re running in into a supreme crisis because they failed to solve all the main problems that now what is the main problem? The main problem is the failure to adjust consumption to production That is in plain language to give the mass of the people the particle sumer goods the mass of the people produce not an insoluble problem It’s a matter of creating conditions in which it can be done now before the war in my early days in politics we had Deflation which was a disaster and some people are proposing it again. They’re dressing it up in a not a lot of new. Jargon It’s exactly the same policy We saw applied before all this Keith J is a power stop of deflating and the rest of it Means doing what we did in the forties the creation of enormous unemployment Now in an effort to escape from that they’ve had the country inflation what you want is a perfectly stable price level with production matched by Consumption and that means two things a viable area and within that area are a government given the power to act I know days in my youth in politics We had the British Commonwealth that is a viable area and if government had the will ready to act we could have solved the problem There that was thrown away in the second war I’m greatly denounced for opposing the second war but it lost us everything And after the war I said we must go right into Europe there’s another valuable area and if you have the whole of Europe and a government capable of running the whole of Europe central government – the main subjects national governments of the next level exactly like we got today and Regional governments Scotland Wales possibly even Yorkshire and Lancashire a great devolution You can solve the problem If you are insulated from the chaos of world markets and a world finance a viable area and the part or act Those are the two things which are necessary in this detail could be added but in broad outline That is what has to be done And you need a government with the will to act within an area which is where action is possible don’t you understand sir Oswald that that what is tied to this will to act is people can see and accept the will to act but what they are also afraid of are the Consequences of the man of action isn’t and they look at Europe and they look at other countries which have chosen men of action some of the left some of the right and they see where that ends and maybe they say our Nice little muddle is rather better than what men of action give us. You’re absolutely right You’ll put your finger on the whole complex and a number of intellectuals. Say are making these points very fairly the other day I said well what you’re saying that any man who’s any damn good is always dangerous You see well now that is is the question. Is it possible? they have men who are capable of great action who are not madmen who are saying and who are Constructive that is you you have a load of manure which has to be shifted And you have a strong elephant capable of doing the job for you Can you be assured that instead of doing the job? He doesn’t run amok and run berserk. Now that the people have got to make up their mind about it sooner or later In ordinary times and I quite see why they say No, they’re strong people and the strong action is not necessary and it is dangerous but when things go wrong It’s a bigger risk to let the muddle go to a disaster then they have a man of action and in those days I think they will turn to action. I never blame the people of some of my friends do For not being ready to take action when the crisis is becoming perfectly obvious when everybody in the known is aware There’s a crisis and the people are still perfectly content now I say an answer to that if I read the journals and newspapers in four languages try to read books in four languages as well If I travel continuously over Europe America and everywhere else seeing every sort of person far more than any other English Politician has ever seen or done of that so I can just working the whole time keep abreast of events How on earth can a chap coming out of a factory? Or coming out of an office having a drink at the local in the way home Keep abreast with events and when they say never had it so good and when wages are going up faster than prices How can they know what is happening? The question is when things go wrong when they wake up when we see England awake instead of asleep will they or will they not then what men of a Well, they do want men of action that have certain proposals to make to them Who would you have around you now? if you had to if you walked into power and you and you were asked to form this Government of men of action a met of talents. Would you have around you? I deliberately now have no no no one around me at all in that era to be precise in 1966 I finally severed myself from all parties from all connections so that I could speak in this country. Who be your cabinet I mean, who are you then? Well, the first step is to see why I separated myself Which was that I didn’t wanted to avoid the charge or wanting through an organized party to impose myself Or through clique or through intrigue or anything else What I do is another reason might be that only two thousand dot people voted for you and nothing Hill gates, of course Well the 8% of the electorate voted for me, which is more than the difference between the parties It was a very curious Election in a long story could be told it was hardly a famous victory what I’m saying what I’m suggesting to you is that you have been rejected by the people when it came to polls but you are now saying is that you will Would form this government or talents what I’m trying to find out is who would you actually have in that government among? Our contemporary politicians and contempt. Yeah, and let’s deal with it with the two points low votes I’ve had not more than eight percent since the war perfectly true But I could give you many examples from recent history of people polling far far less than their Who were in power very few years later the cause created 8 countries quite rightly It’s sensible don’t want Things are drastic things to be done before it’s necessary. Now coming to your second point which is easy. This is a very sound Who would you put into a government of that sort? Well now you would look around you if you were what anyone who was charged with the task For the men who have most succeeded in their particular line of business particularly men like scientists of all kinds particularly men who have succeeded in business there and a reasonable trade union leaders particularly among the and in fact in every sphere there are outstanding people who never fail in public inclusive Sorry can you think of a Reasonable trade union leader who we might include but I can think of that I expect that promptly be turned out of the trade union If I mention their name I know among the younger men quite a lot who I will call Highly reasonable and and a ready for action and in fact I’ve seen trade union leaders on television with you Whom I don’t think would would be unreasonable in a situation of great crises They know when everything is easy and going Relatively smoothly they want and it’s their job to get as much as they can for their members But the moment things go wrong those men will be looking for some way out If the house is on par as a trade unionist a young man since Roswell were in the last two minutes Believe it or not, isn’t it? in fact a reflection on a political figure on a man who is devoted to politics that the only way he can conceive have come into power or achieving his aims and ends is Through a crisis is through a breakdown in the system as it stands now Knotty bees always foreseen that a crisis was inevitable after all it has been admitted Very generously by opponents that I could have been Prime Minister in either of the two main parties But I could not do what the country wanted done with their policies and with their personnel therefore it was inevitable To be act in view of the approaching crisis in a different way Which I have done and my whole life has been a training all that crises, which I’m certain will arrive But other people think we’ll not as your whole life not also been a failure Yeah Well in my life has been a failure if the premise on which I based it Our crisis does not occur Even then I have had some thoughts to offer to my country in the world which some of which have been Accepted but I agree with you that I’ve never given a great part in Action than being a man of action My life would have been a failure so you don’t get it you failed if I don’t get that in my terms As a man of action I should have failed so nicely. Thank you very much indeed