Toolkits Live: Digital Poetry with Benjamin Laird



hello and welcome to this slide broadcast of toolkits a program run in partnership between express media and Australian poetry so my name is melody Paloma and I'm the facilitator for the poetry toolkit tonight we're joined by Benjamin Laird who we speaking on the topic of digital poetry benjamin Laird is a poet and a computer programmer he write print and electronic song which have appeared in peril unusual work call write poetry review as rabbit he has written a book wave conceptual pong with us poet Angela janessa called composition published in 2014 by God Syria and his most recent publication is the Durham home published the theory by style objects a chapbook of bygones he has edited to special issues of electronic poetry for overland and is currently a PhD candidate at RMIT University researching biographical poetry in print and programmable media is also the website producer for Overland literary journal and called out poetry review so thanks so much for joining us Benjamin I'm going to close down my mic and video for now on like Benjamin take over but please tweet up any of your questions using the hashtag p.m. toolkit and we'll have time at the end of the session for responses from Benjamin ok thanks Benjamin over to you thank you great um so this is a this is quite a interesting experience for me I don't normally talk at a wall for for half an hour but that's what I'm going to do now I know you're all out there so hopefully when your questions come through this all be vindicated so I'm coming to live from the Overland journal storeroom so behind me is sixty 60 years of print culture and i'll be talking about digital poetry's it's a nice a nice but if of course like all all journals they've had to do quite a lot online now okay so as a starting point for digital poetry I guess one of the things that I'd like to talk about I guess is a part of my bio so at the bearing in the bio it said i'm doing a PhD researching biographical poetry in prints and programmable media and while talk specifically about my PhD toward the end so in about half an hour i thought i might address that kind of printer programmable poetry element to it because often obviously you you'll when you're in strange places and you run across people they'll say what you do and i say i write poetry in prints and programmable media the cheeky words they pull out of that is print and poetry and they know poetry because of a dip in school as you know majority of people will have encountered poetry in school unfortunately there's not a lot of take off after that imagine with most of your writers that are writing poetry your continued with it which is terrific and with the with the print they know what prince is because we have books digital would be I guess a clearer term but i guess the programmable is weighted towards the fact that that when i talk about this poetry when i talk about digital poetry and talking about poetry with some level of computation involved and for most of us we do you know we do both these things as poets we write poetry and as most people do these days we'll probably use a computer probably use a computational device 22 composer although we won't think of it as such because mostly where we're just playing off what what this this software provide access ourselves provide for ourselves so when when i'm looking at computational basis for poetry or when i'm using this this terminology for the programmable interdigital poetry and so that's computation is central we're really talking about a poem where come tation is essential to its production and that could be a perception stage or it could be a the composition stage and this has some pre pre digital computer phases towards so we're thumb with digital poetry I kind of break it up into and I for this presentation release for my terminologies that i'll be using or break it into two distinct a two distinct areas so the first which I'll talk about is the compositional digital poetry so where we might use computers to create new poems and a little bit about the history of that release the lady history of that using random processes to produce texts and to use computations actually you know goes back to communities millennia d abacuses of nelly computation device and I Ching is used to create a ella Tori responsible random random texts from of that already responsible so those processes new girl talk about the more recent there were more recent poetry and the other the other path that goes later on which is which is an area that I spend a lot more time where's even though I do still use the compositional methods within my poetry the other area is that we that we can look at is where we use visual kinetic and interactive poetry so where we use the computation not just in the composition been the composition that allows us or enables us to have readers experience different different things so experience I beyond the text on the page so interactive us that in connected and so on so when we talk about poetry when we talk about poetry and procedurally driven poetry I think a really nice place to start is in the 20th century with tristan tzara and the data assets and so in 1920 he writes writes this it's both a poem and a method of creating a poem and it's called to to make a data poem and he says that you taking use pay but you take a pair of scissors you choose an article as long as you're planning to make your poem you cut the out the article then you cut each of the words that make up the article and you put them in a bag you shake it gently then you take out the scraps one of the other in the order in which that were left in which they left the bag your copy of conscientiously the poem will be like you and here you are a writer infinitely original and endowed with a sensibility that is charming so beyond the understanding of the folder so you have in the nineteen twenty before the digital computer a little algorithmic process for creating poems which we can do you know right now obviously with scissors and newspapers although newspapers and printer are going the way of the digital so we have computation to replace that process okay so within those within within the deal early 20th century as we get this kind of rising oneness poetics we start to see a whole lot of poets using new processes to to create poetry and and thinking about ways that they can create poetry where they're separate from from the actual column itself so we'll have people like Jackson MacLeod who's a u.s. writer in the 20th century and in the mid in in in 1963 he comes up with the dyad I a stick method which is a reading three method where you take a word such as and this is from Charles Hartman's book it's kind of a memoir of actual news he talks about talks about this dieting method we take a word like ridiculous it begins and you apply that word to another text and you might take that source text me too ridiculous you put the art to pull out a word that the first word begin to blur and then you come across the second word which has I at the second place and so I'm sorry so on as you flow through ridiculous and so you end up with a different text whatsoever from the original are you pulling out the same method self and you also have you know John Cage who's doing a whole range of reading through methods to create kids and saw sticks and massage stick is like an acrostic so whereas you have in an acrostic the first letter of each word begins the beginning of the the actual line itself in a massage stick the spine word is runs through the middle so you get a tree like structure and I i play with three-dimensional Sussex and that's in one of my other works that I will talk about later on okay so we have a whole range of different procedural driven poultry methods then early on which don't have a computer so that I have computers involved straight away but what becomes apparent when we have the the rise of the digital computer and of course had previous computational devices and an even previous programmable devices you know the there are looms from 1801 so mechanical looms that take a punched card to receive programs and so where we have a history of kind of programming devices but it's with the busy the rise of the digital computer that we start seeing more and more experimentation so we start seeing that authors are now looking at a at this this new machine and seeing how this new machine can help them kind of do what they're already doing or what new things of this open up so what can this computation do for their procedural poetry processes you can see very easily even like the last few ones that I've talked about that we can turn them into computational results from that ok so the in arm in a good place to look at this then is so is in a cruise funkhouser's love after you get a right so here he has them to prehistoric digital poetry an archaeology reforms 1959 to 1995 and what's what's interesting about digital poetry as well and even in his identification Shin of early experiments with digital poetry with the computer is obvious lies with the computer is that these are the ones that we've identified so there may be many many more texts out there where people were actually looking computers and saying i can i can create generative texts or i can create poetry they just won't record it because the people may have seen this toy experiments or not necessarily as important to the documents as they couldn't but so his first identified form is their Lutz's stochastic text which is written in 1959 and then following that in nineteen sixty is brian guy stands permutation poem i am that i am and that just takes those words and that was programmed by in somerville and that just takes am that I am and shuffles it down enthusiasts permutation style pops so using the computer from the early 50s is already taking these procedural techniques predated them and putting them into computational forms these ones were new for the computer but then we see later run in the 60s that Jackson flow starts using computers to to produce texts and we start getting to see some of these new different techniques over there use new algorithms for the using older algorithm using don't already procedures and just automating these these processes that are quite labor-intensive ok so what it has been settled from that is since the you know since the invention of the personal computer is a computer in terror on time so whereas one of the larger problems with bapa you would have to rely on somebody else's computer a university computer or mainframe we start to see computers coming into people's homes and so people can start programming and their own their own poetry machines and you know we'll have you Amazings dedicated to obvious computers using these these using using home computers to to actually create poetry or to create different programs that they can use and now it's not I mean I don't want to overplay how significant was was kind of minor but it was enough were reasonably had a constant thread and if you look at funk analysis book you'll also notice that it has a quite regular spread of people coming up with texts and they're the ones they tend to fly so as we go into as we go a bit later we can also see Australians that used and there's these processes so while it's kind of fitness of fiction John trances different hands is a book with a number of praise generated works in it and it could it's equally read as pose prose poetry or kind of short stories so he used break down to produce that and we have a lot of different books coming out too I was really interesting that dick Monfort who I think I've put up the link for trucker gorgeous and melodies on Fort Rucker gorge which he wrote big ones that just posted a tweet this afternoon with showing just the print texts that were computationally generated the he has done a show and that includes I'm John Cage's panicky which was which is a serious massage sticks but he also used a computer to automate the aging process of generating the texts there so we see in the so John trances different hands was later in the in the 90s and then we see later on groups like Noah tree daily day they're an online group and what they've done is they've created quite a lot of software that either replicate some of those or processes or create new processes and we can also see the computational linguistics where we can look at the way that language is shaped and then we might try to generate a new text based on the way that an old text works so based on the frequency of how the words of our next to each other and so there's an n-gram method which will break up words into trigrams which was three words or it could be characters three characters and then we'll use that to match sets of threes along not completely but it'll be how the frequency is reflected within the text and so that's um that's a lot of this software it runs on a whole different lots of processors to create different kinds of forms and is a completely separate areas well that I'm it's worth talking about that runs kind of parallel but it's still in a different direction so whereas these processes are used to generate new poetry that people think people will be interested in in reading there is a whole field of computational linguistics dedicated to creating new new new poems but based off you know trying to match the signup form so making software that writes like Shakespeare and so on it may not necessarily be written for contemporary poetry audiences but are written to test you know how can we emulate language forms ok so the that's the that's the kind of one level tin roof and then we start to see some more exciting things happening as we get social media so Twitter for example where I imagine some of you will be asking these questions has created you know there's subculture of Twitter bots which are small generous poetic machines and some of them may run on template some of them might run on text based things so one that I quite like is Alison parishes the ephemera deeds which takes a NASA photo and put sit next to and put it puts it next to procedurally generated palm of course it's a very popular magical realism bot which creates plots to magic realism but is also a high-tech machine itself suits but crisp rudly has written and programmed by by a look at my list down slower i will i will just retweet too much prison block you can find out who is involved ok so that's our that's one layer so that's kind of the generative i do some of those generative processes in some my work because i think that it comes up with some interesting ideas and actually one of the the more interesting kind of things that you get from from that process is this idea of where you know where you situate your creativity and where the kind of creative process the poetry comes off if you're kind of allocating if you're outsourcing it and I read am I interview with Darren where she'll recently and it's from 2012 but he says something quite interesting where he says that I'm too busy to be creative so being creative is the easiest thing to outsource so you outsource your creativity to machines and you get something that is probably different enough and maybe worth doing and so there's this idea of outsourcing it but it's both a separate process and also a collaborative process their current pulse width okay so if I move on to the the second area of kind of digital poetry that I work in and which is different and so I'm and just going back to you know actually I'm continuing that from a first process one of the things that you will notice is that we are also still talking about a form that you know generally it ends up in in print whereas in this the second process mostly that all these forms are unprincipled because a kinetic or interactive text there is however a middle area which I didn't talk to to talk about in the beginning but it's interesting and it's kind of this third tier of digital code tree which isn't necessarily as popular as the the other two but has a very strong grounding in and quite a lot of authors work in multiple fields and so that's kind of code works or code poetry and the you know the internationally most famous kind of code poet or coke right could work writer in this area is Australian and that's that's me as brave and so she has her own language called ms angle and so this is print looking works but they're in kind of you know what some scholars have described as infected with code or they have you know examples of punctuation and you would have if you manage to look at one of the first over land i believe it was we published one of her poems which was real time firsts and they'll give you an idea of kind of what it looks like and so this is where the punctuation in itself works to kind of program to the text in cup in works in this this separate area and so this is why I find it quite interesting as well as it and why I talked about programmable media and kind of print media or the programmable aspects is because the digital sometimes is is tangential and you know there's always the question of what happens when we get to say other forms of technology that also allows for a random or interactive element and so there is also there a whole tradition of kind of writing poems being in code as well and so and there's also the quite interesting from why I'm staying with Australia the 19 it's headed to 1966 or 1967 and that's the jazz Duke poem for trans who love song and that's the a that sound that was published in one of his Zing's and that's written in Fortran and in theory it should work although there are some kinds of lines of code there that require more information wanted to get to work and he he's written that so he can be read as a pond and it'll to be published in print as such but in theory can also be something that um something that runs on a computer and produces a resource so it ends up being in that kind of gray area ok so the third area that that I'm interested in what Alden I'm addressing times to the digital poetry or poultry programmable media is where the visual and the kinetic are important to the running of the reading and running of the actual pot so where the the reader encounters upon that the text moves or the text is interactive and you'll find that this is you know this is the bulk of see the electronic literature collection works that I said lens too so that the three works there you'll see that there are a whole lot of whole lot of different kinds so that's more than just poetry but a whole lot of a whole lot of works where sound movements and interaction are important to how those works are actually read and received and what meaning they create and so they they do some features that are not necessarily reliant on computation so we have to remember and and it's particularly that's worth remembering whenever you look at something even if it looks new may have a tremendously long tradition so just like the procedural poems and the the the computational poems had some basis two kinds of procedural methods before had and in very you know in many ways that procedural history also sees itself still live today in conceptual poetry and it overlaps quite a lot of the kind of computational areas will also see that there's kinetic poetry in film so we'll have film poems and a long history of film poems not an area that I know particularly well or much about but that there exists then you know since people could see a kind of technology they've tried to say well you know how can I make poetry with it which i think is um which i think is quite interesting and I think it actually ends up relating to a way to start thinking about poetry it's just even start thinking about the tools that you use again so there is um there is a number of a number of poets who are using movements who are using words like even you know mess breezes along with an e campbell is doing some really interesting works and they're moving into VR and game based play but still you know keeping poetic traditions and as I am is in fact a quite a fascinating essay by telling Mehmet where even talks about the fact that you know you can't really have a definition of digital poetry because basically it's the loose as possible someone has to call poetry and it has to be digital in some way and so he really looks at the individual practice China and even down to the individual work so the individual work itself thinking that it's an instrument to be loaned played that we then end up looking at these individual practitioners with very different indistinct styles and so we might have you know people like Jason Nelson who's at Griffith University so he's an Australian basis original USBs australian-based poet doing some really really fascinating things with a kind of a ecology style and a and it creates an incredible atmospheric a kind of whole country poetry is cross between a gaming nostalgia and a contemporary asst that he can only guess we're done with well with the way that his is assembled it obviously animation to consider contemporaneity contemporary you know a feeling of the now with any kind of poetry and and we've had actually in Australia you know since then you know the web and the birth the web should also be seen as a major turning point in this kind of poetry because people who saw finally that a lot poets or fine likely that he was a way to accomplish work so in the 90s that and they'll writing no even seen based or college based works or they were looking at poetry on the page reading performance poet and then they saw that the web is this in place so you see Australian course that communists did and early work in the 90s where's electronic poetry urdu the poetry I'm Jenny wait who did some interesting work with electronic poetry neither of them seem to be doing much in that space anymore but they were the real they're all quite plain years in terms of the web based web base work and so we we'll search and end it's all worth really nothing to it but as I said I said there's new media rights so I'm Jeffrey Shores legible city in the in the 1980s steven is this you know you ride a bicycle through this the city of texts really really fascinating stuff and it's one of those unevenness things about the technology and digital poetry that you know we're seeing a resurgence in video now people are being really trained to work in the space for 20 years but it's become cheap and easy now and that's really I'm one of the pivotal things about about poetry and computing is that when it becomes cheaper and easy to use and we start to see more of am more of a take-up of it or new and fascinating explorations but it also does mean that people are doing expensive things 30 years ago or four years ago and we seeing similar web-based works now it's just that it's cheap and easy to do it now and so at the same time is that we can get quite a lot of innovation we will also get quite a lot of similar kinds of web source of all kinds of techniques which some which is interesting because then we if we look at the print traditions we can see something similar so going back to that that notion of a tool or the process one of the things that I think is quite important to to think about is that when you when you write poetry when you write digital poetry it's a bit like writing poetry with any kind of tool or instrument that if you use a pen to write your poetry normally and you put in your handwriting there's all these kind of materiality there in affordances that a part of that poem and there are things that we can do now like we can print you know whole books with handwritten poetry there's nothing stopping us there's you know mainly accepting or perhaps I Michigan's eligibility and maybe when we're looking at issues of you know how these things are received we we can think about that but really it's is this not really I mean we really need to think about whether you know that might actually be a or form for the bot maybe a handwritten poem is how that poem needs to express itself in terms of material early and the tool itself so the the tools and thinking of it as a tool based on a work is a a way of also then thinking about what else can the poetry too so if you're a spoken word poet you might think of your body as as the place where you're the instrument for the palm if you're a print page put one of I mean you might want to think about some of you know preconceived ideas about the actual space and the territory that you're in as well so one of the things that I do and fork all right because I'm P and the website producer there as well as are sometimes marker some of the more complex problems and one of the things that knows is that 99% of the poems come in on a four pages so people will open up the word processor and those who do four page and what's what's telling is that then that becomes a then becomes a way that the poem is shaped and if you're not conscious about site the size of your page or what you're doing with the page so it's actually shaping upon itself and now some people you know early early 20th century poets and took vengeance typewriter to experiment with the typewriter as a tool so creating columns looking at how the typewriter could produce different results 22 what handwriting's it and in the same way that we can look at web process I mean there's not to be I assume that no journals publish a name for yet people right near for and that if you publish if you want to write yourself you might want to even think of going you know you can get a zero printed out I've done some work in a zero and that's you know it cost me ten dollars to principal oh sure there's probably print alternatives there and you can work on larger spaces so that the pom doesn't need to be trapped on on that smaller page and so if we start to think of these all these things as tools and we start to say or even the materiality language so so things are already thinking about like where the line break is how words my crime what the rhythm of the poem is if you're spoken word poet how I'm going to perform the poem how I'm going to speak it where's the where's the emphasis where is he is the where's the central line to it with all these things then when we start to introduce the digital to it that's when we start to or at least for me that's when I start to then think about what is the other aspects of them one of the other tools that I can do so that really if I'm running for prints I try to think about what the print basis is but if I'm writing for the screen or interactivity what does it mean for the text to move you know what what meeting are we getting from that what does it mean for their be our pawn if you if you're trapped inside a room words mean for a v-up on if if it goes on to a horizon forever or if the text comes from horizon what does it mean for no two lines to to appear together them set them the same way and so trying to you know and so going back to say when we talked about my my PhD it's in biographical poetry so what I'm looking at doing is writing it's a Creative Writing PhD so I'm writing poems about William denson who was a 19th century scientists scientific lecturer and spiritualist so he he kind of combine these two worlds of the scientific lecturing about evolution came to australian 1881 sir 1883 but he was brought out by spiritualist to give lectures on spiritualism and so he you know he believes in life after death in fact he he gave lectures after he died he died in 1883 but he was back on the lecture circuit in 1984 and through through a medium and his most famous work though was the code of things oh sorry the soul of things so my projects called the code of things which comes from the soil things the solar things which is a three-volume set on psychometry that is the idea that objects have memories and that certain psychic Leah where people can pull those memories out so that's the kind of biographical material i'm i'm working with and then i'm seeing how that the digital and how Prince can afford the aspects of William denson's life or can present aspects of Williams Anson's life that suit a biographical moment poetry so you know we're not talking necessarily about literal truths because of metaphor is so central to it but how these might extend later on and so in the in the second part of this class later on I'll show some of the works and talk about perhaps a little bit about what I was trying to do in terms of the digital lies in the digital space was important to those biographical poems or even sue if even to the non biographical poems what why I think that it's important it there's kind of this kinetis ism is me for all the interactivity is is meaningful as a poetic device so meaning in terms poetry not necessarily meaning in terms of the literal and then that comes across into sort of a broader set but perhaps if there are any questions now and that I could address melody my old melody might have some questions so hey clay hi it come through like but um I'm wondering would you extend a little bit on my poet trade you and did you watch it certainly so one is the one of the things about I guess biographical poetry's it's a it's a separate separate field so I mean I suppose I didn't go into it in too much detail because it's a tradition in itself I has its when I say by difficult paltry I'm normally talking about a long-form sorry collections of poems about Sony historic figures and so that will be about that could be you know bloody jack by Dennis Cooley or Michael on that cheese um the collected works of Billy the Kid and so these are these are pawns about about people and so with the with the digital in the biographical it's about seeing how you know how biographical poetry works in print and then how we can use the digital to also present biographical information in a poetic form so with Denton and this kind of his idea of no psychometry and that was partially you know partially the idea that you know digital objects and memories was you know sitting the back proud but then how to kind of extend that out to be a different poems of his life and now none of them directly address that aspects of them yet but they kind of then only suggested to it so they have large eyes in and conceal all directions is a a little WebGL three-dimensional space porn and that is about his two sons ago hunting in paddy hill and fizzle Creek I'm just outside Melvin 1882 and that's a I guess that's a an attempt to also reflect on the fact that the alien landscape so the poem is an alien landscape um Victoria was nearly in landscape to the petite brothers when they were there they were quite kind of shocked by the wildlife and the fauna and flora and then also when Sherman when his son what he said also we invented son was quite young he did psychometric explorations of other planets so literally elepian landscapes so I the third volume of the solids beans is about you know biz being a Jupiter and Mars and so on and so all these points kind of converge be both a reflection of the sailing landscaper than also an alien landscape that they were there prefer for their father and that's why I relationship to live in denton it's that so that's in specific terms to digital and viral yeah great are you meeting in my just echoing sorry i will put my headphones in that's that it's a workday is it echoing for you or is it just me that is nice wine down okay right fantastic we were having an interesting conversation the other day after your event at the Melbourne writers festival about digital poetry and archives and you said something that I found really interesting because I sort of see perhaps some of the benefits of using poetry as it being this sort of bottomless pit of information that we can constantly access but you were talking about how poems that are written through the internet or using digital means now might not be able to be read in say like five years ten years time because we won't have the software anymore sorry my lapse of just gotten out yes um so it's um it's one of those interesting things where we have a we have a situation where a digital culture can seem new and contemporary and kind of in Austin cases cutting edge but it's really cooked into the cooked into the the technology of the time so the technology that we have now is the technology that used to run it which means that we're in situations where and there's lots of people dedicated suits archiving digital literature electronic literature into tral poetry but we're in a wearing a problem that we we actually need specific strategies so if you if you look yeah if you write a if you wrote upon fifty years ago in print you wouldn't have any problem accessing now if you wrote upon 15 years ago as a procedure for a computer you've got lots and lots of problems both in the fact that may not have computers to run it or people to work it out how it actually runs so one of the things that I'm looking at the moment is they chose Dukes four times who love song which doesn't make sure they have a way to it's written in Fortran and which should be able to update it but there's some information that's missing so it may never run again if it did actually run once and so archiving digital poems is actually something that that a lot of people are spending time line because they're they're quite it can be quite a difficult thing to do and quite a quite a problematic why problematic because you know the web browsers you thing about whether web browsers we're 20 years ago and we're looking at the start of the web compared to say waffle seen 20 in 20 more years or the computers that we ran previously so their whole you know organizations dedicated to archiving all technologies who labs that take all computers and there are whole projects about archiving digital digital works but this still you know they're still risks that outliers will will be asked in a way that printed out Liars tend not to be you know you only need one copy of a red zine and that they can set can be saved in a way that a digital Paula may not may not be I'm in a way it seems kind of fitting as well because I'm a lot of those problems that you sent links to me of the a lot of them are quite ephemeral and every every experience is different for every reader and and that kind of disintegration of the poem seems to seems to fit in a way yeah so it then ends up becoming a process with the with the actual um i guess it ends up become part of the materiality so you can have you know you can have poems that you could if you wanted to create you know self-destructing columns purposely to think of materiality that ends up being dedicated to you know it affecting a reading in in a specific in a certain way and yet so then yes certainly that is one aspect of it you spoke a little bit before about starting to think about the tools that were using as an introduction to writing digital poetry are there any other suggestions or maybe programs that you you you might have in mind that you could suggest to the audience about if someone's interest in writing digital poetry how might they start to go about about that without any knowledge of it so if you're already comfortable with your poetry I mean an early a good place to start is to well I read other digital poetry so you know it's the same law without writing poetry too interested in poetry you're obviously be reading poetry so r any other neutral poetry and some very introductory programming courses can help and then once you went to your they're rewriting other people's digital problems copyright allowable and you know you'll see so NIC montford's taroko gorge has multiple multiple kind of rewrites by lots of people so he's allowed that that you can take that and create whole new versions yourself and so once you get you know enter very simple programs so once you get some knowledge other you can start and applying it and kind of remixing other people's work and then you can get the confidence by building up your programming skills to to do other works but there is also you know like with Noah tree and if you want to do procedural driven poetry so this is a Connecticut interactive works but you could you know you can put text in there and you can start generating some of your own so if you're a procedurally generated ponds that way okay great I think we've just had a we've just had a question come through on Twitter from Rory green sororities ask juicy a differentiation between digital poetry and digital art if so how do you personally delineate between so it's actually something I think a lot about so mostly you know I'm the adulterer which is the main way to index it I am i if I just will not okay so adulterer which is one of them made one of my places where these kind of workers index their their index together but what you'll find is that you know almost the only difference is digital text based digital art occurs McAlary and digital poetry a good occurs in a journal so in for it occurs online and actually a lot it's a weird thing because a lot don't between whether they're you media artists or whether they're electric poets whereas so that the kind of clear distinction isn't quite as clear as it as it couldn't be but in a lot of ways really comes down to where the work is red and it's almost like you know issue rights if you did a lot of text-based art and you published in the journal people with well considering poetry but if you had upon a gallery they would often consider art and then we can see the concrete poetry that often that's quite fuzzy so we'll have exhibitions of concrete poetry at the same time as seen them in journals themselves and how people to discuss them and so the scholarly context in which they discuss is really really where they know them situated or know where we then end up situating them depending on who talks about it so like Jeffrey shop or a very much has talked about as an artist even though he has works like legible city great we haven't had any more questions come through on Twitter but we might we might wrap it up there I think thanks so much Benjamin that was fantastic you and if you'd like to have a look at our other live sessions broadcasters patos a toolkit program you can do that by the express media website Tuesday the 27th will be the last tool kits live session at six thirty on editing and publishing with our scrum d ok thanks again and thank you benjamin thank you everyone thank you ok bye

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